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Thread: After MJ, who is the GOAT?

  1. #31
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    Career, obviously. Or else Benard King would be hailed a top 35 player ever.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine
    Career, obviously. Or else Benard King would be hailed a top 35 player ever.
    Nate "Tiny" Archibald would be ranked way up there too. Led the league in assists and points in a season (34.0 ppg and 11.4 apg). No one else has done that...yet.

  3. #33
    Troll spotting pro Y2Gezee's Avatar
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    The 80's differ to today's basketball as much as the 60's to the 80's. I don't know why, if the 80's stars could dominate every era, the 60's ones couldn't. And no, Elson could only dominate the 40's and early-mid 50's. Then was the era of the "6-7 centers". Wilt's era was quite different, though. The only legit 6-7 center of that era was Wes Unseld, who was also around 300 lbs at his peak.

    The 80s don't differ today that much, when talking about the individual player. The best players in the 80s can hang with or in most cases out play the ones of today. As most of them were better 2 way players. Only major difference is that the teams today aren't as good or as deep in part to expansion.


    Back on topic, Magic went through greater competition to get his 5 than Jordan to get his 6. Yeah, Mike was one of the greatest defenders ever, but Magic still was a very good defender overall and helped lead some very good defenses. Now take into consideration that Magic ran an offense probably better than anybody in history or (at worst top 3), and could probably make the Hawks today into an well-oiled machine and probably a better leader than Mike, well I think that makes up for some of the defensive and scoring Mike has over Magic.

    And for Zombles to say he isn't top 5 is

  4. #34
    Sweaty ti.ts basketballer4's Avatar
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    Kevin Garnett.

  5. #35
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    And for Zombles to say he isn't top 5 is wtf
    Kareem
    Jordan
    Wilt
    Bird
    Bill

    All have cases for top five. It's not all out wrong to say Magic is not top five.

  6. #36
    Verbosity Incarnate Sound and Fury's Avatar
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    Boy, this topic got derailed quickly.

    I actually thought Bill Simmons made a great point in the article where he compared Larry Legend to Big Papi - when you become an NBA icon, it's like climbing Mount Everest. You get to the top of the mountain with everyone else, and that's it. You can't climb MORE of Everest than the whole thing.

    IMO, there are eight players that sit atop the "Everest" of the NBA and are in the All-Time Greats section. In no particular order:

    Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, West, Robertson.

    You can make a pretty good argument for ANY of these players being "the" greatest of all time, but that's just silly - they're all transcendent talents but their games were different enough that they can't be compared apples-to-apples. How do you compare Jordan - a slashing two guard - to Russell, a defensive anchor in the middle? Answer? You can't. You simply say that they were all incredible talents and leave it at that.

    So to the original poster's question, I don't put Jordan "first" but if you want to single him out from the other seven guys, fine - the other seven are all tied for second place.
    Last edited by Sound and Fury; 08-08-2006 at 01:00 PM.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kumquat
    The man also had the best team mates. He's up there, but you can't judge a player solely on rings.
    He had a good player or two with him, but you can't hold that against him. He was the leader of that team, and he had 11 rings. He was supremely talented. And is hands down, the best defensive big to ever play the game. For the most part, he was the one making those teammates better. Bob Cousy is the only one you can really make a case for as being a great on his own merits.

  8. #38
    Verbosity Incarnate Sound and Fury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carbine
    Kareem
    Jordan
    Wilt
    Bird
    Bill

    All have cases for top five. It's not all out wrong to say Magic is not top five.
    How does Bird "have a case for top 5" when Magic doesn't? There is a reason the two are always linked, and it's not just because they came into the league together after playing in the NCAA championship game. They're basically joined at the hip - both were ultimate team players who could score, shoot, pass, and rebound - whatever was needed. Bird probably had the better shooting eye, and Magic was more athletic (especially once Bird's back started giving him trouble), but in general, they were almost interchangeable as players - in fact, Magic would "play Bird" and vice versa in scrimmages when they were preparing to play against each other.
    Last edited by Sound and Fury; 08-08-2006 at 01:04 PM.

  9. #39
    I usually hit open layups GothamKnight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sound and Fury
    Boy, this topic got derailed quickly.

    I actually thought Bill Simmons made a great point in the article where he compared Larry Legend to Big Papi - when you become an NBA icon, it's like climbing Mount Everest. You get to the top of the mountain with everyone else, and that's it. You can't climb MORE of Everest than the whole thing.

    IMO, there are eight players that sit atop the "Everest" of the NBA and are in the All-Time Greats section. In no particular order:

    Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, West, Robertson.

    You can make a pretty good argument for ANY of these players being "the" greatest of all time, but that's just silly - they're all transcendent talents but their games were different enough that they can't be compared apples-to-apples. How do you compare Jordan - a slashing two guard - to Russell, a defensive anchor in the middle? Answer? You can't. You simply say that they were all incredible talents and leave it at that.

    So to the original poster's question, I don't put Jordan "first" but if you want to single him out from the other seven guys, fine - the other seven are all tied for second place.
    Shaq should be up there

  10. #40
    Learning to shoot layups cks9505's Avatar
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    Depends on how you view the question.
    If you ase this on accomplishments you have to say Bill Russell
    If you base it on talent, I don't think anyone is touching Lebron James right now

  11. #41
    Verbosity Incarnate Sound and Fury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GothamKnight
    Shaq should be up there
    No, he shouln't (and I like Shaq). Shaq had the size for physical dominance, but had nowhere near the skill and drive that the others had. (Even Wilt, who was physically dominant, had an incredible amount of skill - remember, when criticized for not being anything but a scorer, he said, "fine, I'll lead the league in assists next season" - and then did it).

    If you implanted Jordan's will to win and work ethic in Shaq's body, Shaq would probably be on the list - but Shaq has interests outside of basketball and is not all-consumed with winning. Fair or not, the perception is that Shaq squandered his talent and just coasted through his career on raw ability, which is why most people won't put him on the GOAT list. Hakeem is probably "in line" before Shaq is.

    My knock on Shaq is not that he wasn't dominant, but that he made no effort to improve, while the rest of the guys I named did, which made them progressively MORE dominant. That's the difference (to me, anyway).

  12. #42
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    Wilt, Jordan, Magic, Bird, Kareem, Russell, West, Robertson.
    Shaq
    Shaq had the size for physical dominance, but had nowhere near the skill and drive that the others had.
    So does Jason Collins.
    If you implanted Jordan's will to win and work ethic in Shaq's body, Shaq would probably be on the list - but Shaq has interests outside of basketball and is not all-consumed with winning. Fair or not, the perception is that Shaq squandered his talent and just coasted through his career on raw ability, which is why most people won't put him on the GOAT list. Hakeem is probably "in line" before Shaq is.
    You look to mcuh into the medias pespective of it, Magic had other interest rather then the NBA , he liked to party just as much as the next guy. I'm not saying Shaq is better then any of those guys on you're list but there can def. be a argument made that this man deserves to be up there. 4 rings , 1 MVP , 9 con. fg % best in the NBA , 10 plus all-star appeareances, 20pts or more whole career, 10 rebs or more except last year.

  13. #43
    Saw a basketball once K*O*B*E's Avatar
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    Magic is the best complete basketball talent ever to grace a basketball court point blank period. centers are like line men in the NFL they should never be consired the best because they duties are so limited wilt did not have any ballhandling duties he didn't face any one equal with his size the best player he faced was not even a true center compared to him. but it has to be magic

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by K*O*B*E
    Magic is the best complete basketball talent ever to grace a basketball court point blank period. centers are like line men in the NFL they should never be consired the best because they duties are so limited wilt did not have any ballhandling duties he didn't face any one equal with his size the best player he faced was not even a true center compared to him. but it has to be magic
    Magic didn't play much defense, though. But he is definetely up there. Amazing talent.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by K*O*B*E
    Magic is the best complete basketball talent ever to grace a basketball court point blank period. centers are like line men in the NFL they should never be consired the best because they duties are so limited wilt did not have any ballhandling duties he didn't face any one equal with his size the best player he faced was not even a true center compared to him. but it has to be magic
    you're a complete idiot and no one should ever take anything you say seriously again because of that statement.

    Wilt a lineman????Falkin hell dude have you lost your mind? has wankin to Kobe pullout posters made you blind?

    Look at his stats, tell me ANY lineman in history that has ever dominated like that.

    Forget about all his scoring records, the guy averaged 23 rebounds for his CAREER.

    BTW. the best complete player has to have a jumpshot, and Macgic aint got one.

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