Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

[RedBlackAttack]

so a layup or dunk has the same difficulty level as a 24 foot jump shot?

Weaving through an entire defense that is focused on stopping you and finishing at the basket over 7-footers consistently and with the coordination to avoid charges... yes.

[YAWN]

Weaving through an entire defense that is focused on stopping you and finishing at the basket over 7-footers consistently and with the coordination to avoid charges... yes.

..wait you mean as difficult as an uncontested long range shot, right?

[RedBlackAttack]

..wait you mean as difficult as an uncontested long range shot, right?

I mean, as difficult as ANYTHING in the NBA.

LeBron is 6'9" and 260 pounds, yet he flies by the other team's best defensive GUARD (or guards), has the coordination and dribbling skill to change direction if needed, the ability to stop on a dime when a player steps up to absorb contact and then the strength to finish over a collapsed defense.

Do you think that is easy? Do you think the difficulty of plays like that (which makes up the majority of LeBron's scores) are accurately depicted on a shot chart?

I agree that shooting% may be overrated when it comes to power forwards and centers, who simply post up in front of the basket, turn, and shoot. But, let's be honest with each other... that is not LeBron's game or even close.

LeBron's offensive skill-set, in fact, is almost completely unique. A lot of the shots that he makes could not be even attempted by any other player in the NBA.

How many players have the size, speed, and coordination to score the way he does as consistently as he does? If others could do it, they would be.

So, yes, I think that weaving through a defense that is geared to stop you and only you, but still finding the gaps, having the body control to avoid charges and finishing over a collapsed defense is as difficult or more difficult than making even a contested 20-footer.

I see a lot of guys make a lot of contested 20-footers during the course of a game/season. I don't see many other guys scoring the way that LeBron does... ever.

I'll ask you the questions again...

Do you think that is easy? Do you think the difficulty of plays like that (which makes up the majority of LeBron's scores) are accurately depicted on a shot chart?

[BIGSHOT]

The Cavs are 35-21 with LBJ. That's a 50 win pace. LeBron is the MVP in the truest sense of the word. I'm not sure if the Cavs could win 20 games without him. With him, however , they are a 50+ win caliber team and IMO a legit EC contender. If that's not value I don't know what is. And besides look at his numbers. 31/8/8 with eliete defense. Just amazing stuff.

[Make It Rain]

he actually doesn't, he shoots more shots closer to the basket...kobe has a better fg% than bron on jumpers, lebron gets alot of his points at the basket hence the higher field goal % and in turn the higher PER..stats need to be examined inside and out to get the true meaning...

edit kinda interesting read
http://www.82games.com/wilq.htm

Are you blaming LeBron for taking better shots? This is the argument I'm tired of. Kobe isn't better because he takes a lot of outside shots. If he could take it in and dunk all day he would, but he can't. For Kobe it is easier to pull up for a jumpshot and make it and it is a lot harder to get to the rim and finish for him. Otherwise, don't you think he'd just dunk all game? Come on guys this is common sense.

[w00terz]

40 pages of c0ck-riding, nut grasping, flaming homers slurping on Lebron and Kobe's man juice......

[RedBlackAttack]

40 pages of c0ck-riding, nut grasping, flaming homers slurping on Lebron and Kobe's man juice......

...and what are you contributing?

I thought that I actually had a valid point a few posts ago, but no replies. Had I said "LeBron is the sh!t and Kobe is nothing without Shaq, Pau and Bynum," I would have gotten 20 replies by now.

But, no one seems to want to have an intellectual discussion on this site any longer. You aren't helping things by padding your post count and trying to look cool by putting down people who have contributed to this thread.

While there may be some of what you say going on, here, there is also an interesting discussion about how accurate shot charts are in evaluating difficulty of scores.

Apparently, you want no part of that debate and would rather point out that there are some homers/haters on this thread. Nice job...

[w00terz]

...and what are you contributing?

I thought that I actually had a valid point a few posts ago, but no replies. Had I said "LeBron is the sh!t and Kobe is nothing without Shaq, Pau and Bynum," I would have gotten 20 replies by now.

But, no one seems to want to have an intellectual discussion on this site any longer. You aren't helping things by padding your post count and trying to look cool by putting down people who have contributed to this thread.

While there may be some of what you say going on, here, there is also an interesting discussion about how accurate shot charts are in evaluating difficulty of scores.

Apparently, you want no part of that debate and would rather point out that there are some homers/haters on this thread. Nice job...

When every other topic/post is in some way related to Kobe and Lebron, people are obviously going to overlook stuff.

I guarantee whatever you said was probably said in some form or another in a different thread. ISH is oversaturated with Lebron/Kobe nut-huggers including you.

[RedBlackAttack]

When every other topic/post is in some way related to Kobe and Lebron, people are obviously going to overlook stuff.

I guarantee whatever you said was probably said in some form or another in a different thread. ISH is oversaturated with Lebron/Kobe nut-huggers including you.

...and what do you contribute to this site? In order to call someone out for being basically 'useless' on this board, you need to at least be someone who brings in good discussions. I haven't seen you do that one time.

You are really good at pointing out others' short-comings, but how about adding something useful to the site?

This thread is stickied and was merged from about 20 other LeBron-Kobe related threads. Yet, you clicked on it anyway.

If you want to debate a subject, I'm game. Pick a topic... any topic. I'm dying for interesting conversation on here, in fact. Apparently, you are too... let's have it.

[john_d]

Kobe already won this... there is no point arguing anymore.. u want proff??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa..._Award_Winners

[Lebron23]

40 pages of c0ck-riding, nut grasping, flaming homers slurping on Lebron and Kobe's man juice......

Please Be quit.

This is an NBA forum we can discuss any topics that we want in this website.

[YAWN]

I mean, as difficult as ANYTHING in the NBA.

LeBron is 6'9" and 260 pounds, yet he flies by the other team's best defensive GUARD (or guards), has the coordination and dribbling skill to change direction if needed, the ability to stop on a dime when a player steps up to absorb contact and then the strength to finish over a collapsed defense.

Do you think that is easy? Do you think the difficulty of plays like that (which makes up the majority of LeBron's scores) are accurately depicted on a shot chart?

I agree that shooting% may be overrated when it comes to power forwards and centers, who simply post up in front of the basket, turn, and shoot. But, let's be honest with each other... that is not LeBron's game or even close.

LeBron's offensive skill-set, in fact, is almost completely unique. A lot of the shots that he makes could not be even attempted by any other player in the NBA.

How many players have the size, speed, and coordination to score the way he does as consistently as he does? If others could do it, they would be.

So, yes, I think that weaving through a defense that is geared to stop you and only you, but still finding the gaps, having the body control to avoid charges and finishing over a collapsed defense is as difficult or more difficult than making even a contested 20-footer.

I see a lot of guys make a lot of contested 20-footers during the course of a game/season. I don't see many other guys scoring the way that LeBron does... ever.

I'll ask you the questions again...

Do you think that is easy? Do you think the difficulty of plays like that (which makes up the majority of LeBron's scores) are accurately depicted on a shot chart?

Youre talking about the set up to get open for that layup not the actual difficulty of the shot. Youre right not many players can do what he does. But that same process is usually handled by a team breaking down the defense and making the right passes. Thats how other people in the NBA catch the ball and lay it in the hoop. No doubt Lebron does a hell of alot more work to get to the rim than most players in the league but when did that come into play regarding the field goal percentage?

i see many players scoring layups.. I thought it was understood that thats the easiest shot in the game. Not knocking him for it because he if he can get that easy shot off then by all means he should take that over a contested jumpshot. Do you know why..?? Because the contested jumpshot is more difficult.

[YAWN]

Kobe already won this... there is no point arguing anymore.. u want proff??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa..._Award_Winners

i had no idea kobe was going to win 6 consecutive mvp awards

[RedBlackAttack]

Youre talking about the set up to get open for that layup not the actual difficulty of the shot. Youre right not many players can do what he does. But that same process is usually handled by a team breaking down the defense and making the right passes. Thats how other people in the NBA catch the ball and lay it in the hoop. No doubt Lebron does a hell of alot more work to get to the rim than most players in the league but when did that come into play regarding the field goal percentage?

i see many players scoring layups.. I thought it was understood that thats the easiest shot in the game. Not knocking him for it because he if he can get that easy shot off then by all means he should take that over a contested jumpshot. Do you know why..?? Because the contested jumpshot is more difficult.

And this goes directly back to my point. Why aren't other players doing what LeBron does and weaving through defenders to get closer to the basket and score in the teeth of the defense? Because it is more difficult to do that than it is to sit back and shoot contested jumpshots.

The same logic that you used to show why LeBron does what he does to get to the rim can be mixed around and asked of those players that choose to shoot contested long jumpers instead of getting to the basket.

Why? Because it is damn difficult to do what LeBron does.

As for your assertion that 'many teams use ball movement to get jumpshots.' Again... this can be turned around... Many players use great ball movement to get UNCONTESTED jumpers. So, why bother taking contested jumpshots when, with ball movement, you can get open jumpshots?

We both know that the logic that applies to other players doesn't stand up when talking about Kobe and LeBron. Defenses will always be focused on those guys, whether they have the ball or not. That makes their production that much more incredible.

Also, LeBron's incredible ability to get close to the rim and finish where other guys cannot ABSOLUTELY has an effect on field goal percentage. If other guys in the NBA tried to get to the basket and finish the way that LeBron does, they would probably succeed about 10% of the time... Making his 49% from the field that much more impressive.

[john_d]

but the real question is lebron fans...

if lebron goes for High percentage shots most of the time... why does he have have average FG%...

ur overrating lebron drives to the basket... it not difficult for him, cause he is still young... question is can he keep it up for 5 more years?