Lebron James vs Kobe Bryant, in the season, in MVP talk, more

[KINGD]

Yeah, Kobe is superior.

[Loki]

Regardless if it's Wade, LeBron, Jordan, Johnny Bravo, Hillary, McCain or Moses, Kobe feels he could do better.

But that's the entire problem with Kobe's mentality right there. I guess you just don't see it.

Not a knock on LeBron, he's legit and phenomenal, but Kobe does have a point. As a one man army, playing against those teams...come on. I'm scared to even imagine it.

Kobe could not produce like Lebron's produced this season whether he was in the WC, EC, or ACC. Deal with it.

[Phenomenon]

Kobe could not produce like Lebron's produced this season whether he was in the WC, EC, or ACC. Deal with it.

No he would not because he isn't as good of a passer or rebounder BUT giving a similar situation he could score 35 PPG on a higher efficiency and be a 1st team defense, which subjectively is better then what LeBron is putting up.

But of course people like you tend to ignore that Kobe is a much better free throw shooter and is a better 3 point shooter...while playing in a system that dropped Jordan's numbers across the board. Jordan was putting up LeBron like numbers before the triangle offense was utilized for him, and then he started putting up Kobe like numbers...now explain to me how you can sit there and tell us that Kobe can NOT put up say 32/7/7 under a different system, when his entire career he played under Phil Jackson...that's kind of ignorent on your part.

[Emile]

This is a parallel for me. LeBron is Shaq and Kobe is Duncan.

[Emile]

But that's the entire problem with Kobe's mentality right there. I guess you just don't see it.

Why do you think that's a problem? That's a great mentality to have IMO.
Not just in basketball.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

At the young age of 23, Lebron is already putting up some better numbers than Michael Jordan.

Lebron averaging 7.4 assists and has averaged over 6 assists four years in a row. (MJ only surpassed that number once; indeed, over 6 assists only 3 times).

Lebron averaging 8.1 boards (MJ matched that only once. other than that, never over 7 boards.)

Lebron already averaging over 30 points for the second time, and is still very young. (MJ did it 8 times). I would expect Lebron to continue to do so as long as he is healthy.

[Emile]

^ I've said it all along, LeBron is too dominant. Individually and especially statistically, he wil surpass any player that ever lived, except for that damn Wilt lol.

[Loki]

No he would not because he isn't as good of a passer or rebounder BUT giving a similar situation he could score 35 PPG on a higher efficiency and be a 1st team defense, which subjectively is better then what LeBron is putting up.

But of course people like you tend to ignore that Kobe is a much better free throw shooter and is a better 3 point shooter...while playing in a system that dropped Jordan's numbers across the board. Jordan was putting up LeBron like numbers before the triangle offense was utilized for him, and then he started putting up Kobe like numbers...now explain to me how you can sit there and tell us that Kobe can NOT put up say 32/7/7 under a different system, when his entire career he played under Phil Jackson...that's kind of ignorent on your part.

Jordan's numbers dropped off pretty linearly with age, so it had nothing to do with the offense. Regardless, he still managed two seasons of 31+ PER in the triangle (1990 and '91) and another 2 seasons well above 29 PER. And another 2 well above 27 PER. Kobe's around 25 PER now, for comparison. So don't blame Kobe's relative lack of production on the system.

As for how I know Kobe couldn't do what Lebron is doing, here's how:

The only time Kobe was ever placed in an '89 Jordan/Lebron type "do it all" role, where he was just given the ball and asked to make things happen, was during the first 32 games of the 2005 season. Here's what Kobe averaged during that stretch:

28.4 pts/6.3 reb/6.7 ast/1.6 stl/1.0 blk/4.6 TO/40.6% FG (note the atrocious offensive efficiency and galling A:TO ratio; in fact, Kobe was on pace to set an NBA record in TO/gm that season before he hurt his ankle and sat out a month)

Lebron this season is at 31.0 pts/8.1 reb/7.4 ast/1.9 stl/1.0 blk/3.4 TO/49% FG. Note the excellent A:TO ratio and low TO's considering his usage, and also his scoring efficiency.

Jordan in the same type of role for the final 25 games of the '89 season (about 2-3 years before his "skill" prime, mind you) averaged 29.4 pts/9.4 reb/10.4 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/3.6 TO/52.6% FG. Again, note the A:TO ratio (2.9:1), the amazing TO/gm average despite the production, and offensive efficiency.


Again, Kobe could never, at any point in his career, have done what Lebron is doing. Period. You can't even show me a 20 game stretch where Kobe has come close to equaling Lebron's all-around numbers this season.

[Emile]

20 game stretch[/b] where Kobe has come close to equaling Lebron's all-around numbers this season.

I think you're wrong Lok. The entire post in fact, not just this paragraph.

Not that I don't agree with the basic premise, I do...

But in 02/03, Kobe was asked to do all those things and he was doing them.
I remember that after like 50 games in the season he averaged like 28-7.5-7.5
Before Shaq came back. He had a lot of TD games and near TD games to start the season. Then the 40 ppg stretch.
I do remember however, I still have that NBA magazine at home from that period and yeah, after like 50+ games, he was at cca 7.5 reb/ast.

But then again, that was when he was asked to play that role and he had the additional weight on.

But usually yeah, those stats don't come nearly as naturally to him.

[bleedinpurpleTwo]

by posting in this tool's threads, you are only fostering a continued negative environment and encouraging the nutjob to make endless Lebron threads.

[KINGD]

Jordan's numbers dropped off pretty linearly with age, so it had nothing to do with the offense. Regardless, he still managed two seasons of 31+ PER in the triangle (1990 and '91) and another 2 seasons well above 29 PER. And another 2 well above 27 PER. Kobe's around 25 PER now, for comparison. So don't blame Kobe's relative lack of production on the system.

As for how I know Kobe couldn't do what Lebron is doing, here's how:

The only time Kobe was ever placed in an '89 Jordan/Lebron type "do it all" role, where he was just given the ball and asked to make things happen, was during the first 32 games of the 2005 season. Here's what Kobe averaged during that stretch:

28.4 pts/6.3 reb/6.7 ast/1.6 stl/1.0 blk/4.6 TO/40.6% FG (note the atrocious offensive efficiency and galling A:TO ratio; in fact, Kobe was on pace to set an NBA record in TO/gm that season before he hurt his ankle and sat out a month)

Lebron this season is at 31.0 pts/8.1 reb/7.4 ast/1.9 stl/1.0 blk/3.4 TO/49% FG. Note the excellent A:TO ratio and low TO's considering his usage, and also his scoring efficiency.

Jordan in the same type of role for the final 25 games of the '89 season (about 2-3 years before his "skill" prime, mind you) averaged 29.4 pts/9.4 reb/10.4 ast/2.5 stl/1.0 blk/3.6 TO/52.6% FG. Again, note the A:TO ratio (2.9:1), the amazing TO/gm average despite the production, and offensive efficiency.


Again, Kobe could never, at any point in his career, have done what Lebron is doing. Period. You can't even show me a 20 game stretch where Kobe has come close to equaling Lebron's all-around numbers this season.

You realize 04-05 was one of Kobe's worst seasons, and that he was playing with plaintar facisuis all year? I don't think Kobe could put up those numbers... but he could display equal individual dominance. I think Kobe is more then capable of putting up 36/6/5/2 over the course of a season. Hell, in 05-06 ge did basically that with bum right knee.

[RedBlackAttack]

You realize 04-05 was one of Kobe's worst seasons, and that he was playing with plaintar facisuis all year? I don't think Kobe could put up those numbers... but he could display equal individual dominance. I think Kobe is more then capable of putting up 36/6/5/2 over the course of a season. Hell, in 05-06 ge did basically that with bum right knee.

He'd never do it on 49% shooting, though. That is a major figure that you are overlooking. He can't match LeBron in rebounds, assists, FG%, or blocked shots.... those are four pretty major categories.

I don't think an extra 4 ppg can make up for all of that.

[KINGD]

He'd never do it on 49% shooting, though. That is a major figure that you are overlooking. He can't match LeBron in rebounds, assists, FG%, or blocked shots.... those are four pretty major categories.

I don't think an extra 4 ppg can make up for all of that.

Yes, but 45% is solid. He shot considerably bettter from the free throw line and from 3. Their TS% is equal. While he can't match LeBron in assists he still draws plenty of defensive attention and consistently gets his teamates open looks. In fact, Kobe easily gets more " hockey assists" then LeBron. He is not the passer LBJ is but still very good. Rebounding? Kobe gets you about 6 a game at the SG position while gets 8 at the SF position. Kobe might very well be the best rebounding guard not named J.Kidd. Not to mention his ALL-NBA 1st team defensive selection.

[Phenomenon]

As for how I know Kobe couldn't do what Lebron is doing, here's how:

I ignored the rest of your post because as usual you rely everything on the ****ing PER. PER doesn't grasp defensive prowess at all, you measuring LeBron & Kobe as players based on PER or Pts/Rbs/Ast/Stls/Blcks and FG% (while always neglecting to compare their FT% and 3pT%) is flawed.

Scoring: Kobe is better because he's a more rounded scorer, he can hurt you from anywhere on the court including the free throw line. PPS and overall efficiency, Kobe wins...outside of his 35 PPG season where LeBron had a slight edge and Kobe's atrocious first season without Shaquille, Kobe has been a more efficient scorer.

Defense: Kobe's defensive advantage isn't measured in numbers so that's another thing that's misleading when you try to compare their respective impact on the game...Kobe is a first team all-defense, LeBron is not...while LeBron puts up great rebound and assist numbers, Kobe is a more efficient scorer and defender...Kobe does a lot of the so called intangible parts to help his team win while LeBron's production is measured more on the stat sheet, which is why I hate comparing players based on their statistics.

If that was the case, everytime you interview a head coach or one of their peers...all of them should say LeBron is clearly the best player because his stats are so much above anyone in this league currently...but that's not the case, the general cosensus is that Kobe is the #1 player in this league currently.

Jordan's numbers dropped off pretty linearly with age, so it had nothing to do with the offense.

Jordan was in his prime when he played under the triangle, quit telling me the myth about him declining in production due to age.

Again, Kobe could never, at any point in his career, have done what Lebron is doing. Period.

And yet Kobe is still at LeBron's level, slightly above or slightly below his level even though their statistical comparison is quite one sided...and the reason is people with a brain realize it's not all about the numbers buddy. Maybe one day you will realize it, and it will stimulate you to think outside the box.

Here's what Kobe averaged during that stretch:

Of course lets concentrae on Kobe's worse season as a leader of his team where he didn't even have a legit head coach to run the team. Yeah lets ignore the things Kobe has done the past two years for comprison purposes where he was a more efficient scorer and a much better defender then LeBron...

[Phenomenon]

The only time Kobe was ever placed in an '89 Jordan/Lebron type "do it all" role, where he was just given the ball and asked to make things happen, was during the first 32 games of the 2005 season. Here's what Kobe averaged during that stretch:

Really that's the only time right?
He wasn't put in that role in 2006 and 2007, where he averaged 40 PPG for an entire month just to get his injury riddled team into the playoffs...no I must be confusing someone else with Kobe, yet Phil Jackson in an interview claimed how he had to unleash Kobe during those tough times. But of course you will only highlite the time where Kobe struggled because the man was playing with an injury that season.

Again, Kobe could never, at any point in his career, have done what Lebron is doing.

Statistically, hell no and he will never do it...impact wise, it's very arguable.