NDEs...(Near Death Experiences)

[dr.hee]

If it was just a brain trip then why does everyone have the exact same l

Here's a study from a guy who favors a paranormal explanation (Pim Van Lommel): http://www.anomalistik.de/sdm_nde.pdf This paper is well known and the guy is respected by believers of supernatural stuff going on during NDEs.

He's listing the experiences people had during their NDE, and it's clear that it's not the "exact same". Not even close. Even if you believe in a supernatural explanation, it's still not true that theres this one universal experience all people share.

Here's the frequency of different NDE features as reported by patients in the study I've linked:

Awareness of being dead (50%)
Positive emotions (56%)
Out of body experience (24%)
Moving through a tunnel (31%)
Communication with light (23%)
Observation of colours (23%)
Observation of a celestial landscape (29%)
Meeting with deceased persons (32%)
Life review (13%)
Presence of border (8%)

So you can believe in some supernatural cause of course. But if your reason for this conclusion is this:

yes, if they are a "brain trip" it is really quite an amazing coincidence that the thousands of people that report them are all having the same exact dreams...

...then that's not really true. And just to clarify, I hope there's something great waiting after my death. But right now, there's simply not as much evidence for that as some want to believe.

Besides, I mean the majority of people simply doesn't have NDE's during clinical death. If the distribution was the other way around, I'm pretty sure that believers would point out that it can't be a coincidence that most people see something. But well, most simply don't. It seems like this aspect gets often ignored by believers.

And you have to be careful while reading personal experiences on sites like near-death.com. They really don't care about the quality of the stories people are posting. A lot of the people reporting their stories were never clinically dead in the first place (meaning their brain was alright, they were unconscious at best), or stuff like this quote taken from an NDE report from near-death.com:

After healing, Emanuel started his ministry of testifying to what he saw in heaven. Everywhere Emanuel goes, there are miracles. For example, in Rwanda he prayed and a very powerful witch, feared all over Rwanda, lost all of his powers! In Tanzania, Emanuel was imprisoned for preaching to and converting Muslims. While in prison, he prayed and a powerful wind destroyed the prison. Prison officials set him free the following morning! Right now, Emanuel ministers in Kenya and South Africa. He travels to different countries to share his testimony with others.

Sounds legit.

[-p.tiddy-]

No there is a very clear pattern that NDEs follow...some people might not recall some of the steps but over a huge study they all see the same things and go through the same steps.

On top of that they ALL are not only convinced they are real but they say it feels more real than life here on Earth. They also say it is a famiar place as in they know they had been there before life here in this universe.



If it was a dream state then NDEs would contain crazy things that make no sense...you know like a dream. In my dream last night I was being chased by an Elephant and then I was at the dentist office...made no sense. If NDEs were jyst hightened brain trips they woukd have randomness like that.

[-p.tiddy-]

Their was a neurosurgeon that was an atheist and NDE skeptic who just recentky had an NDE and wrote a book on it. He is a full believer now. Book is a nunber 1 seller and all profits going to NDE awarness

[tpols]

eh.. just because something cant be explained doesnt mean you can attribute it to a heaven or god. Its all just one big cycle, we have very temporary conciousness for a bit and then are recycled into some different form.. the idea of you or me probably doesnt exist past this life, you get thrown back into 'everything'.

[dr.hee]

No there is a very clear pattern that NDEs follow...some people might not recall some of the steps but over a huge study they all see the same things and go through the same steps.

Link? And aren't you completely ignoring my post of one of the most well known studies on the subject done by one of the leading researchers of NDEs? So they actually talked to people after cardiac arrest. And they tend to disagree with your statement.

Also again, the majority of people coming back after being clinically dead didn't see anything.

[-p.tiddy-]

Link?

I'm on my phone...just look at the wikipedia page for NDE

[dr.hee]

I really don't get this about NDE believers...so if let's say 10% of cardiac arrest survivors report an experience, that's something important. They never ask what it could mean that 90% don't see sh*t.

[PistonsFan#21]

eh.. just because something cant be explained doesnt mean you can attribute it to a heaven or god. Its all just one big cycle, we have very temporary conciousness for a bit and then are recycled into some different form.. the idea of you or me probably doesnt exist past this life, you get thrown back into 'everything'.

you are speculating just as much as people that believe in God or heaven by saying that. there is no scientific evidence for one or the other. Its all about faith and belief at this point

[tpols]

you are speculating just as much as people that believe in God or heaven by saying that. there is no scientific evidence for one or the other. Its all about faith and belief at this point

Well what do you think happens? I just get the impression that, were here for .00000000000000000000000000001% of all time, yet while were here we make our present self out to be what we have been and always will be.

[-p.tiddy-]

I really don't get this about NDE believers...so if let's say 10% of cardiac arrest survivors report an experience, that's something important. They never ask what it could mean that 90% don't see sh*t.

Why is that hard to understand? Obviously them not recalling having one doesn't mean it didn't happen. Just about all NDEers say they were told and saw endless things they can't recall.

The neurosurgeon that had one says he had a complete understanding of dark matter and how the universe worked but now it is all lost.

[miller-time]

The neurosurgeon that had one says he had a complete understanding of dark matter and how the universe worked but now it is all lost.

Convenient. I bet he can use vague analogies for how the afterlife looked though!

I've read the book, definitely an interesting read but it didn't convince me of anything. The disease and medical aspect was far more interesting than NDE parts.

[Scholar]

Is that really a blind person though? In my perfect world, a blind person can't see anything but black...

Just a question in regards to this post ...

What if people who are born blind see the color red instead but don't know what color it really is?

[miller-time]

Just a question in regards to this post ...

What if people who are born blind see the color red instead but don't realize it's really black?

They don't see black or any colour for that matter. From what I understand there is a complete lack of sensation. It is hard to get your head around but imagine you have an eye on the end of your finger right now but it doesn't work. When you think about what that eye is looking at do you see black? Or is there just no sensation? That is what it is like to be blind. You have no sensation at all, not even black.

[Jello]

only gullible idiots would buy the book by the neurosurgeon.

The neurosurgeon that had one says he had a complete understanding of dark matter and how the universe worked but now it is all lost.

[dr.hee]

Why is that hard to understand? Obviously them not recalling having one doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Really? That's quite funny. Memory is stored in the brain, I mean even the most ridiculous esoteric nutjobs would admit this. If you dont believe this, visit a nursing home or a neurological clinic. And since the NDE believers claim the experiences have nothing to do with brain activity at all and are happening while the brain is completely shut down, how could people "forget" this stuff?
Makes no sense at all. If it's happening independently from the brain, how is it all of a sudden dependent on whether the information is stored in you head or not?

To claim that all clinical death people are making magical supernatural journeys, and just don't remember it is ridiculous. I mean if a few people report their NDEs, they should be taken seriously, but if the majority says "I didn't see sh*t" you are not even admitting the possibility that they really saw nothing at all? You'd rather say 90% have forgotten everything? It's one thing to believe that NDE accounts are not simply a product of a dying brain. Alright, go ahead with that. But to simply claim that the other 90% experienced the exact same thing, but simply forgot it? I mean seriously? Are you that afraid of death that you need to create comfort by making up "proof" about an afterlife?

Is the same true for other things, too? I can't remember being ever abducted by aliens. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, right? Can you prove to me that Santa Clause never brought you presents? Can you prove that there aren't invisible fairies around your bed at night? Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they aren't there...

You know, I'm open to the possibility that there's more behind this than just a brain illusion. Would be pretty cool. But idiots who "believe" and have their mind already made up, claiming there's definite "proof" of an afterlife and sh*t are exactly the reason why credible scientists are reluctant to engage in more research on the topic. It's like believers are afraid that the result turns out disappointing, so they delude themselves into thinking it's a fact. Which it isn't. It's because of all those naive nutjobs that guys who want to finally make credible research about NDEs are faced with immense difficulties of getting financial support for their projects.

So why isn't it enough for you to say "We can't explain it at all.". That's alright. The most probable explanation is a natural one to me, but since I can't show how that works, it's not proven. But the same is true for the opposite. Whether you like it or not. I mean even this Eben Alexander guy admits that a possible explanation is that he saw all that stuff while his brain was rebooting. Then he says that's unlikely, a better explaination is that he was in actual heaven for 2 weeks, lol.