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Old 06-23-2014, 01:27 PM   #736
el gringos
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Batum, Wes Mathews, no Williams, robin Lopez, t Robinson, Darrell wright, 1st

For

Carmelo, jr, bargnani
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Old 06-23-2014, 02:18 PM   #737
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Batum, Wes Mathews, no Williams, robin Lopez, t Robinson, Darrell wright, 1st

For

Carmelo, jr, bargnani
Never ever would happen. Although I would love to mandate a terrible contract in the deal like Bargs. Any S & T for Melo includes Bargs mandatory!
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Old 07-14-2014, 02:37 PM   #738
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

K Love, kmartin, their choice of any or all of buddinger, lrma, barea
For
Amare, j Tyler, Hardaway, Larkin, thanasis, Ellington, 2018 1st, 3 2nds, their choice of any or all of prigioni, dalembert,
------------
Knicks are going to win the bidding for love because the offer never changed it just kept getting better. The rest of those teams won't part with someone and so they have more to give. Pretty soon Minnesota will realize that his value and destinations will drop once the season starts
---------------
Calderon/shumpert/jimmer/murry
Jr/kmart/buddinger
Carmelo/cleanthony/lrma
Klove/kmart
Bargnani/dalembert/Aldrich
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:16 PM   #739
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
K Love, kmartin, their choice of any or all of buddinger, lrma, barea
For
Amare, j Tyler, Hardaway, Larkin, thanasis, Ellington, 2018 1st, 3 2nds, their choice of any or all of prigioni, dalembert,
------------
Knicks are going to win the bidding for love because the offer never changed it just kept getting better. The rest of those teams won't part with someone and so they have more to give. Pretty soon Minnesota will realize that his value and destinations will drop once the season starts
---------------
Calderon/shumpert/jimmer/murry
Jr/kmart/buddinger
Carmelo/cleanthony/lrma
Klove/kmart
Bargnani/dalembert/Aldrich

No No No No No

Just stop already. Please?
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:50 PM   #740
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoovegittar
No No No No No

Just stop already. Please?
Is it that the players on the Knicks that I think have value don't have value in your mind. Or do you not want the Knicks getting better now because you think a giant gift will come land on top if you in 15, 16, or even 17/18?
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Old 07-14-2014, 06:54 PM   #741
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Is it that the players on the Knicks that I think have value don't have value in your mind. Or do you not want the Knicks getting better now because you think a giant gift will come land on top if you in 15, 16, or even 17/18?

I value most of the players the Knicks have...and value the money we will gain by expiring contracts. I'm trusting in PJ's decisions, and he's calling it a PROCESS. You seem to be in a great hurry to ship out all these players. I believe the Knicks target Mark Gasol next season, and pick up 2 or 3 solid players. That's a championship team right there. I find your trade ideas MUCH too excessive, and over-the-top. But you're entitled, as I am to comment...
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Old 07-14-2014, 07:25 PM   #742
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smoovegittar
I value most of the players the Knicks have...and value the money we will gain by expiring contracts. I'm trusting in PJ's decisions, and he's calling it a PROCESS. You seem to be in a great hurry to ship out all these players. I believe the Knicks target Mark Gasol next season, and pick up 2 or 3 solid players. That's a championship team right there. I find your trade ideas MUCH too excessive, and over-the-top. But you're entitled, as I am to comment...
And I'm glad you do comment. But I wonder about the realistic chances of 2 or 3 more solid players. In fa? Who? And them even more I wonder about the realistic chances of gasol? Really? Just for capspace? How often does that work for any team? Why is a gift owed to you in a competitive marketplace?


I just can't figure how dropping from an 80-90 million dollar payroll to a 45-60 is worth the gamble. Do you know someone's coming over for free? Do you know you couldn't have more talent off some trades?
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:18 AM   #743
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

When you pay into the luxury tax and cant win is utterly stupid. At some point you want to become fiscally responsible so you can have the flexibility to make moves.

At some point you have to start over again. EVERY franchise has done so. The Knicks did it one time before and acquired Stat, Melo, and Billups.

The reckless spending and trading has to stop and start to establish a foundation.

With that said I really was hoping Zen had another trade or 2 in the bag. Once Melo signed but that doesnt look like this was the case.

Zen has admittedly said this team has a glut of SG/SF players hopefully there is some kind of trade he is looking to make. Zen is boosting Hardaway and Shump but realistically none of these players are dynamic or studs. I cant see them bringing top quality without eating terrible contracts or adding picks, which I doubt will happen.

I heard Zen say he likes Stat at C and that means Bargs at PF. I just need Bargs to be decent enough to increase his trade value.

As of now this team has holes at SG, PF, C. The teams with worse SG's than the Knicks have Elite PG and/or SF.

There is still work to be done if this team wants to be competitive next year.
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:13 AM   #744
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

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Originally Posted by Rameek
When you pay into the luxury tax and cant win is utterly stupid. At some point you want to become fiscally responsible so you can have the flexibility to make moves.

At some point you have to start over again. EVERY franchise has done so. The Knicks did it one time before and acquired Stat, Melo, and Billups.

The reckless spending and trading has to stop and start to establish a foundation.

With that said I really was hoping Zen had another trade or 2 in the bag. Once Melo signed but that doesnt look like this was the case.

Zen has admittedly said this team has a glut of SG/SF players hopefully there is some kind of trade he is looking to make. Zen is boosting Hardaway and Shump but realistically none of these players are dynamic or studs. I cant see them bringing top quality without eating terrible contracts or adding picks, which I doubt will happen.

I heard Zen say he likes Stat at C and that means Bargs at PF. I just need Bargs to be decent enough to increase his trade value.

As of now this team has holes at SG, PF, C. The teams with worse SG's than the Knicks have Elite PG and/or SF.

There is still work to be done if this team wants to be competitive next year.
Start over yeah. Different team. That's what they're doing. Carmelo and bill ups came in a trade. All the luxery tax comes from amares contract. You undervalue the talent of JR smith and bargnani a lot. How can you be against trading Amare but for trading Bargnani? Either you want them to expire and wait for a free agent or you want to trade them for talent. Can't have it both ways can you?


Here's the big difference between now and the last time they "started over". They are way closer to good now than then. To try to give up trying to get good for a shot in the dark that a free agent will show up for free is nuts.


Why do you believe you get good players for free? Because you outbid everybody for Amare? Amare is the only problem left on the team. If you could trade him into 2 useful pieces you have a team
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:19 PM   #745
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Start over yeah. Different team. That's what they're doing. Carmelo and bill ups came in a trade. All the luxery tax comes from amares contract. You undervalue the talent of JR smith and bargnani a lot. How can you be against trading Amare but for trading Bargnani? Either you want them to expire and wait for a free agent or you want to trade them for talent. Can't have it both ways can you?


Here's the big difference between now and the last time they "started over". They are way closer to good now than then. To try to give up trying to get good for a shot in the dark that a free agent will show up for free is nuts.


Why do you believe you get good players for free? Because you outbid everybody for Amare? Amare is the only problem left on the team. If you could trade him into 2 useful pieces you have a team
I never said I was opposed to trading Stat. Its easier to trade 12 mill than 22 mill. But I rather dump Bargs for a player than Stat at this point. Obviously you dont know how constraining it is for teams in the luxury tax really limits your movement its quite punitive. You should google it. Its utterly stupid to be a bad team in luxury tax hell.

There is no guarantee a FA player will want to come here for sure I agree. I rather have the cap space and our picks first then decide whats best from there than adding bad contracts for less talented players. You are all in for spending on terrible talents like Josh Smith (very good talent like him a lot personally not worth the years and money), Ersan, Larry (Psycho Sanders), Mayo etc.... You are everything that represents the old and pitiful ways of this organization. Spend on rejected players. Its guaranteed to continue the losing ways. Obviously you are unaware of this not knowing Knick history.

How can Amare be the reason we are in the luxury tax if he was signed before Melo?

No one wanted Bargs until the Knicks came a knockn and no one wanted JR how can these unwanted players have less value.

By the way it was me that wanted Bargs to get back to what he was about 4 or 5 years ago. The guy should play in Europe or China next season. The guy just a dumb player that is more inconsistent than anything of worth.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:31 PM   #746
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Talent on the Knicks
Tier 1- Carmelo
Tier 2- jr, bargnani
Tier 3- Calderon, shumpert, smith
Tier 4- amare, hard away jr
Tier 5- Tyler prigioni, Aldrich


I wouldn't be surprised to see Cleanthony slide right into tier 3 this season but is a guaranteed 4 min


Larry sanders or Josh smith would be tier 2's. Why would you not want better players? All because of the idea that something will come gift wrapped just a pure free agent signing. You don't get that you do have to choose who you want to spend money on wisely but chipping up in talent at the top tiers is always so much more important than worrying about the talent in the middle tiers.


If the Knicks ever get love or gasol they'll have to trade for him.the only way players were moving as free agents for capspace is if you are shaq/Lebron or if the team is just willing to overpay. Ala Amare, joe Johnson ?



The real proof you don't understand talent is when you compare josh smith or Sanders to the shells of themselves versions of penny, franchise, tmac's or compare Carmelo to zach Randolph, curry, Crawford?



This is apples and oranges to that Isaiah era. The only way you can even come close to taking the gamble on free agency over a trade is if you were guaranteed to get Love, gasol, or I guess maybe Dragic to leave as straight free agents. I can't stand your mindset that just capspace, you don't have to have a specific target? He'll yes you do. Because you can beat that in the trade market
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:27 AM   #747
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

We are significantly upgraded already on the court, coaching and management. Aren't we better to put a solid season together, hopefully get 4-5 seed and show the league that things are moving in the right direction. Then use the cap space we'll have at a time when the Knicks are a legit destination for someone like Marc Gasol in 2015?

I like that more than trading for some limited players now and trying to coble something together again.
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Old 07-18-2014, 02:24 AM   #748
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Talent on the Knicks
Tier 1- Carmelo
Tier 2- jr, bargnani
Tier 3- Calderon, shumpert, smith
Tier 4- amare, hard away jr
Tier 5- Tyler prigioni, Aldrich


I wouldn't be surprised to see Cleanthony slide right into tier 3 this season but is a guaranteed 4 min


Larry sanders or Josh smith would be tier 2's. Why would you not want better players? All because of the idea that something will come gift wrapped just a pure free agent signing. You don't get that you do have to choose who you want to spend money on wisely but chipping up in talent at the top tiers is always so much more important than worrying about the talent in the middle tiers.


If the Knicks ever get love or gasol they'll have to trade for him.the only way players were moving as free agents for capspace is if you are shaq/Lebron or if the team is just willing to overpay. Ala Amare, joe Johnson ?



The real proof you don't understand talent is when you compare josh smith or Sanders to the shells of themselves versions of penny, franchise, tmac's or compare Carmelo to zach Randolph, curry, Crawford?



This is apples and oranges to that Isaiah era. The only way you can even come close to taking the gamble on free agency over a trade is if you were guaranteed to get Love, gasol, or I guess maybe Dragic to leave as straight free agents. I can't stand your mindset that just capspace, you don't have to have a specific target? He'll yes you do. Because you can beat that in the trade market

I wont go back and forth with you if you dont have the necessary reading comprehension to have a discussion.

Adding Josh Smith, Larry Sanders, Mayo, Ersan, doesnt make this team significantly better. Josh Smith nor Larry Sanders arent worth the money they are making and the years they have left on the contract. Adding them and taking up unnecessary cap space that hinders your opportunity (not guarantee) for real tangible talent or just to be able to make future moves. Adding them does not propel the team into championship status so its just not worth it.

Its that same stupid rationale that got the Knicks stuck with a guy like Stat.

You have no concept or firm grasp on the reality of the NBA and how it should be cyclical. Even the Lakers the 2nd biggest market went through a couple of rebuilding phases with Kobe there. They put themselves in position to have assets and flexibility.

I am not opposed to trading Stat or Bargs for a difference maker or quality pieces but not at the expense of flexibility or wasted cap space.
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:03 PM   #749
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rameek


Adding Josh Smith, Larry Sanders, Mayo, Ersan, doesnt make this team significantly better. Josh Smith nor Larry Sanders arent worth the money they are making and the years they have left on the contract. Adding them and taking up unnecessary cap space that hinders your opportunity (not guarantee) for real tangible talent or just to be able to make future moves. Adding them does not propel the team into championship status so its just not worth it.

Its that same stupid rationale that got the Knicks stuck with a guy like Stat.

You have no concept or firm grasp on the reality of the NBA and how it should be cyclical. Even the Lakers the 2nd biggest market went through a couple of rebuilding phases with Kobe there. They put themselves in position to have assets and flexibility.

I am not opposed to trading Stat or Bargs for a difference maker or quality pieces but not at the expense of flexibility or wasted cap space.

Smith or sanders over Amare would make them significantly better



I'm wanting to come over to your side that it would be better to wait for free agency but think to get one of the best guys I'll always believe you have to trade for them. I can't see why you won't actually know who you want and talk about how realistic that specific player is to get.


love
Gasol
Dragic


I think you'd have to trade for any of those 3 (maybe Dragic walks for absolute max).


Isn't love out of the running once he gets traded? Could you see him going to gs or Cleveland and then moving on the next year?


So the entire goal is to hope Memphis is too cheap to give gasol a max deal and in the process probably have to renounce shun-pert, bargnani, and Jason smith, possibly JR for the slight chance he comes?


How do you not see that your plan is a bigger gamble and you waste season(s) not trying to win? I think it's because in theory your plan is better and it lasts forever. You can move from 15 to 16 to 17 and on




Who are the right players that could make it worth it to lose the dream of capspace? How do you get them now and avoid wasting another season, especially when the east is so wide open. Because maybe you're right and it's not sanders and illyasoca or maybe it's not josh smith. But if you're going to say it's not those guys you have to say who it should be
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Old 07-19-2014, 02:37 AM   #750
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Default Re: So what moves can be made?

Quote:
Originally Posted by el gringos
Smith or sanders over Amare would make them significantly better



I'm wanting to come over to your side that it would be better to wait for free agency but think to get one of the best guys I'll always believe you have to trade for them. I can't see why you won't actually know who you want and talk about how realistic that specific player is to get.


love
Gasol
Dragic


I think you'd have to trade for any of those 3 (maybe Dragic walks for absolute max).


Isn't love out of the running once he gets traded? Could you see him going to gs or Cleveland and then moving on the next year?


So the entire goal is to hope Memphis is too cheap to give gasol a max deal and in the process probably have to renounce shun-pert, bargnani, and Jason smith, possibly JR for the slight chance he comes?


How do you not see that your plan is a bigger gamble and you waste season(s) not trying to win? I think it's because in theory your plan is better and it lasts forever. You can move from 15 to 16 to 17 and on




Who are the right players that could make it worth it to lose the dream of capspace? How do you get them now and avoid wasting another season, especially when the east is so wide open. Because maybe you're right and it's not sanders and illyasoca or maybe it's not josh smith. But if you're going to say it's not those guys you have to say who it should be
If Smith or Sanders or Ersan or Mayo doesnt automatically make you a championship contender then they are not worth it. You take away the opportunity to add or trade for some other player(s) that gets you way closer to that goal.

This is what I mean by Knicks past taking on those type of players and bitch later why they cant get rid of them or the team stays mediocre or losing.

Your idea is a terrible gamble.
By adding these players are these the missing pieces that makes this team a championship contender? So are they worth staying in the punitive luxury tax?

Sanders 4 years 11 mill per
Josh 3 years 13.5 mill per
Ersan 3 years 16.something total
Mayo 2 years 8 mill per

We have 2 expirers that nobody wants... You think any of the above players have value to winning teams? No not at all. But you add them to the Knicks roster and we have no room to make moves.

My gamble is to get out of luxury tax purgatory and saving picks to become players in the market for quality players that can push the team into contention. Look at the situation now we have nothing to give to acquire Love or Marc Gasol. Thats because the Knicks dont have talent, nor cap space nor picks to make moves.

I dont have players in mind right now nor do I have a wish list because the Knicks dont have the players or picks or cap space to make a move for those players.

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