1994 Pippen should have been mvp

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans not even trying to make a case anymore.

[Reggie43]

MJ stans not even trying to make a case anymore.

The fact that you call me an MJ stan without me making a case for him is the best example of paranoia in this board

[tpols]

everyone is an MJ fan and/or an alt of one another to this guy.

he may have a case of mild schizophrenia.

[Roundball_Rock]

Correct--Pippen haters almost to a poster happen to be Jordan fans (not something most of them will deny, only fake Pacers fans, so the faux concern over mentioning MJ fans hate Pippen is amusing). Pure coincidence, as is that the two players in question happened to be teammates.

Tpols, I have no idea what you are. You hate Pippen but are all over the map so don't fit neatly into any camp.

[Reggie43]

everyone is an MJ fan and/or an alt of one another to this guy.

he may have a case of mild schizophrenia.

He probably does seeing the amount of threads he is simultaneously replying to, that shit is not healthy and is probably messing with his brain.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Rockball since the doc aired:


How long before this sick puppy goes back into hiding? And posts on his alts.

[Roundball_Rock]

MJ stans not even trying to make a case anymore.

Reduced to quibbling over what % of Pippen haters are in fact MJ fans. As if whether it is 70%, 80% or 90% matters.

[tpols]

i dont hate pippen... i'd have no reason to. i pretty much call it like it is.

[Roundball_Rock]

i dont hate pippen...

Yup, you just happen to be in every Pippen thread (it is the same posters--we aren't supposed to notice that and who the bulk of them are fans of) saying he sucks. Anyway, you are in the (small) non-MJ/Pippen hater category.

It isn't just ISH. The same thing happens elsewhere. Just own the agenda (not directed at you tpols but the others). We all see it: Pippen sucked, MJ won by himself against giants (every other 90's star). We see it all over on social media, other sites, etc. daily and it isn't hard to see what the agenda driving it is. People can notice posting histories, people can click on social media profiles and see what comes up, etc.

[insidious301]

Jordan bad. 90s wack. Pippen though!

Think you guys have been talking about the same stuff for months now.

[Roundball_Rock]

19 pages in and "Pippen haters" have not had a single word of criticism towards any other superstar/star mentioned in the thread. So the pose of solemn objectivity driving criticism of Pippen, but not one word towards any other player that has come up in the thread. In fact, even when their own professed criteria was applied to other players, their response often was to defend those players who fared even worse based on their own criteria (the other response was simply to ignore other players and focus on bashing Pippen). Pippen does it, he sucks; anyone else does it to an even worse degree--they are awesome!

Players who came up in this thread include Pippen, Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing, Miller, Drexler, Stockton, Payton, and Kemp. Only one was subject to scrutiny by "Pippen haters." No bias, no agenda whatsoever. Simple objective analysis.

[Sarcastic]

1993-94 Pippen;

- 3rd in Plus/Minus
- 4th in PER
- 5th In Defensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Offensive Plus/Minus
- 5th In Value Over Replacement Player
- 7th in Defensive Win Shares
- 7th in Win Shares
- 7th In Defensive Rating
- 9th in Win Shares Per 48 Minutes

And Lead his Team to 55 wins (two wins less than the prior season) WITHOUT MJ.

That's not a strong enough season to win MVP. It's a very nice season, but not MVP worthy.

[Roundball_Rock]

His response is to the people saying Pippen didn't even have a case and shouldn't have even been a candidate because he was a bum. Those are MVP-caliber numbers (a statistical comparison of Pippen and Ewing was done earlier after a MJ fan said Ewing had better stats; it was so lopsided a Knicks fan called for a ban ). As to who wins, a lot of factors go into it. Personally, Hakeem was the right choice but Pippen would have gotten my second vote if I were a MVP voter.

[Sarcastic]

David Robinson put up 29.8/10.7/4.8 on .577 TS, with a 30.7 PER, .296 ws/48, and 11.9 BPM. He also led his team to 55 wins, except he didn't have 2 other All Stars, and a top rookie on his team the way Pippen did.

Shaq also put up numbers far superior to Pippen in 94, beating him PER, ws/48, and win shares, along with traditional box score numbers.



The correct order should have been
1 Hakeem
2 Robinson
(gap)
3 Shaq
(gap)
4 Pippen
5 Ewing
6 Payton or Kemp
7 Payton or Kemp

[Roundball_Rock]

Wow, a real response for once in this thread? One caveat is Pippen missed 10 games and was hurt for another 2 (Bulls started 5-7 as a result). That hurt his MVP case but also hurt his stats. If we are assessing performance we have to look per game (while docking him in season long consideration).

VORP: Robinson 11.4, Hakeem 7.3, Shaq 7.2, Pippen 6.8 (7.7 over 82), Ewing 5.5
BPM: Robinson 11.9, Pippen 7.7 (8.8. over 82), Hakeem/Shaq 6.8, Ewing 5.2
PER: Robinson 30.7, Shaq 28.5, Hakeem 25.3, Pippen 23.2, Ewing 22.9

WS? Robinson ahead by a mile.

If it is about stats, then it should have been Robinson in a landslide with the order behind him varying based on which stats you value. Of course, these advanced stats didn't exist back then. Pippen would be 2nd in BPM and VORP if he played a full season and was 4th in PER (which penalizes ballhandlers due to turnovers). So probably 2nd.

along with traditional box score numbers.

Center versus SF numbers are apples to oranges. The big difference is rebounding. Prime Kareem matches Jordan in scoring, assists (KAJ ahead in blocks, MJ in steals) but crushes him in rebounding but I never see anyone say prime Kareem>prime Jordan statistically.

He also led his team to 55 wins, except he didn't have 2 other All Stars, and a top rookie on his team the way Pippen did.

The Bulls went 50-20 (59 win pace) with a healthy Pippen, with one loss in a meaningless 82nd game. People keep acting like 55 wins was their performance level. 59 wins would be #1 in the East and second best in the NBA. He deserves to be docked for missing games, but his personal performance and team performance was better than the raw stats suggest.

True, Robinson had less help--but he also had perfect health for his team. Their top 5 guys all played 77+ games. The Bulls had injury issues, which always gets overlooked.

The Bulls weren't great without Pippen. They scored 87 PPG, had a -9 point differential. It isn't like he had the 19' Raptors "cast" or something, even if better than the Spurs'.