Anyone believe Covid is very serious but at same time the vaccine ain't doing shit?

[Manny98]

Actually the vaccine may well be helping him get through this. Being a drug and alcohol abuser (which he's admitted) probably didnt help his immune system.

I doubt that,

you put too much faith in vaccines and lab created medicine and not enough faith in the human bodies ability to naturally fight off illnesses

How do you think we were able to survive as a species for 100s of millions of years before vaccines were created

A big reason why I choose not to get vaccinated is that I literally never get sick, I worked through this "pandemic" as a key worker in a field where I was highly exposed to a lot of people and I still didn't get sick not even once

Especially seeing the potential side effects out there, you have to respect other people's personal decisions

[tontoz]

I doubt that,

you put too much faith in vaccines and lab created medicine and not enough faith in the human bodies ability to naturally fight off illnesses

How do you think we were able to survive as a species for 100s of millions of years before vaccines were created

In a lot of cases we didn't. There were a lot of mass deaths along the way but i get it you are young, think you are bulletproof and DGAF about anyone else.

650k+ dead bodies just in the US (in spite of wearing masks, social distancing etc) tell me just letting nature take it's course isn't a good idea. Not only because of the covid deaths but also the people who died because their weren't ICU beds available.

[tontoz]

Youre making irrelevant arguments.

I said nothing partisan in the post you initially responded to, yet your immediate reaction was to claim “a conservative governor said x,y, and z!!!!! Aha!!!” It’s clear your opinions are easily colored by a partisan view of government.

I pointed out that politicians can have ulterior motives and youre insisting “but hes conservative!” You said something about mask mandates and hospitals, I pointed out that opposing the mask mandates is irrelevant. You transformed that into an assertion I didnt make that hes lying about hospital statistics.

Youre all over the place and it’s coming off shrill and defensive.

I really dont care how you want to personally approach masks, vaccines, covid, political orders, etc. I wish you would grant others the same courtesy. Perhaps in real life you do, but your innumerable posts splattered on every page of this topic across multiple threads give me the impression youve got an “enforcer” mentality when it comes to your views of how everyone should respond to this issue.

Anyway, you may carry on. For my end Ill leave it at what Ive already said.

LOL i literally went a year without posting about the topic at all.

In case you haven't been paying attention there has been a clear divide in how people view Covid based on politics. Typically Republican governors more likely to be anti vax and anti prevention. In Florida the governor there is actually selling anti-Fauci tee shirts to fund his re-election campaign. He's banned masks in schools. Texas has already banned vaccine passports. And so on.

Dems have typically been more pro mask pro vaccine.

Whether you like it or not people's responses have been very political.

[Manny98]

In a lot of cases we didn't. There were a lot of mass deaths along the way but i get it you are young, think you are bulletproof and DGAF about anyone else.

650k+ dead bodies just in the US (in spite of wearing masks, social distancing etc) tell me just letting nature take it's course isn't a good idea. Not only because of the covid deaths but also the people who died because their weren't ICU beds available.

We would have reached herd immunity and deaths would have eventually started to go down.

You're acting like the human race would have gone extinct if it wasn't for lockdowns and mask wearing which has been proven to do f*ck all

Isreal despite being the most vaccinated country in the world have record high number of cases which proves vaccines don't prevent transmission

[Bronbron23]

Right now the natural immunity vs vaccine debate is nothing but a side show. The real problem is all the unvaccinated people filling up our hospitals.

We've got a conservative governor in WV who is against mask mandates literally begging people to get vaccinated because there are so many unvaccinated people in his hospitals. The funny part is that it was one of the antivaxers here who originally called attention to the governor, taking a one minute clip out of context while completely ignoring the other hour of the press conference.

At the 19:30 mark he announced they are giving out prizes for people to get vaccinated.

It's way more than a side show. Hundreds of millions of people worldwide wide are being given a vaccine who don't need it taking it away from millions who need it but can't get it. Thousands of people are dying because of this.

The overwhelming hospitals argument is a faulty one but i'm sure most people who aren't vaxxed would be willing to go to the back of the line for care if that would solve the issue

[tontoz]

It's way more than a side show. Hundreds of millions of people worldwide wide are being given a vaccine who don't need it taking it away from millions who need it but can't get it. Thousands of people are dying because of this.

Once again you are leaning on assumptions.

1) If people didn't get vaccines here, those doses would have been shipped overseas. Do you actually have any evidence of this? Have you ever considered that the drug companies have a certain percentage of the vaccine earmarked for us and for other countries?

2) The lack of vaccinations overseas is entirely due to a lack of supply. You completely ignore the logistics (distribution, storage, appointments, administering the vaccine) that were problematic in the rollout here. I doubt that India can handle it as well as we did.

3) You are assuming that the masses in other countries actually want to take the vaccine. This is comical coming from someone who hasn't taken it himself.

The overwhelming hospitals argument is a faulty one but i'm sure most people who aren't vaxxed would be willing to go to the back of the line for care if that would solve the issue

Somehow i doubt a guy in ICU will willingly give up his bed for someone else.

[tontoz]

We would have reached herd immunity and deaths would have eventually started to go down.

You're acting like the human race would have gone extinct if it wasn't for lockdowns and mask wearing which has been proven to do f*ck all

Isreal despite being the most vaccinated country in the world have record high number of cases which proves vaccines don't prevent transmission

We already knew the vaccines don't totally prevent transmission. What the vaccines do is minimize the effects and help prevent severe cases.

Found a lengthy article breaking down Isreali hospitalizations.

https://www.covid-datascience.com/po...are-vaccinated

[Bronbron23]

Once again you are leaning on assumptions.

1) If people didn't get vaccines here, those doses would have been shipped overseas. Do you actually have any evidence of this? Have you ever considered that the drug companies have a certain percentage of the vaccine earmarked for us and for other countries?

2) The lack of vaccinations overseas is entirely due to a lack of supply. You completely ignore the logistics (distribution, storage, appointments, administering the vaccine) that were problematic in the rollout here. I doubt that India can handle it as well as we did.

3) You are assuming that the masses in other countries actually want to take the vaccine. This is comical coming from someone who hasn't taken it himself.



Somehow i doubt a guy in ICU will willingly give up his bed for someone else.

1) the us and other wealthy nations absolutely has vaccines earmarked. That's part of the the problem they have more than they need earmarked. The us and uk has twice as many vaccines as it needs and canada has almost 5 times more than it needs. This earmarking or hoarding of vaccines by the wealthy nations is a problem Thatmany poor nations have been complaining about but its not something your gonna hear from our media obviously. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ne-india-covax. This article goes into more depth of it and is proof that poor countries clearly want and need way more vaccines.

2) yes it's all about lack of supply. Not for the wealthy they have plenty as i already pointed out. And plenty of countries like india have the capacity to administer vaccines. The supply just isn't there because as i pointed out the wealthy countries are hoarding them. Even if for argument sake if there were poor countries that couldn't it would be in everyones interest to help facilitate that process. It is a global pandemic.

3) not sure what my personal choice has to do with poor countries not being able to get vaccines. Like all countries some want the vaccine and some don't. The problem is the ones that want it can't get it.

[tontoz]

1) Thatmhttps://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox...ne-india-covax.

The first line of the article tells the story. The operative word is 'purchased'. After all the time and resources companies invested into developing and manufacturing the vaccines I don't expect them to just give them away for free.

The US is already subsidizing the rest of the world for drugs. Pretty much any drug you can name is far more expensive here than any other country. We are the ones who pay the costs to develop the drugs and the rest of the world benefits.

There is no law against other countries developing drugs of their own rather than waiting on handouts from us.

[Bronbron23]

The first line of the article tells the story. The operative word is 'purchased'. After all the time and resources companies invested into developing and manufacturing the vaccines I don't expect them to just give them away for free.

The US is already subsidizing the rest of the world for drugs. Pretty much any drug you can name is far more expensive here than any other country. We are the ones who pay the costs to develop the drugs and the rest of the world benefits.

There is no law against other countries developing drugs of their own rather than waiting on handouts from us.

Come on man you have to be joking? It's not about saving lives its big buisness. It's not about free. It's about making a trillion dollars or a billion dollars. Highest bidder gets it. It's a joke. If it was about saving lives and stopping the pandemic They would sell it at a fair price on needs basis. They'd still make billions. Your being very nieve about this. The pandemic like most pandemics is being used to make the rich richer. You don't actually believe half of the loaded shit the media tells you do you?

[tontoz]

Come on man you have to be joking? It's not about saving lives its big buisness. It's not about free. It's about making a trillion dollars or a billion dollars. Highest bidder gets it. It's a joke. If it was about saving lives and stopping the pandemic They would sell it at a fair price on needs basis. They'd still make billions. Your being very nieve about this. The pandemic like most pandemics is being used to make the rich richer. You don't actually believe half of the loaded shit the media tells you do you?

Like it or not drug companies are in business to make money. If they didnt have financial incentives to develop and make the drugs then there would be no vaccines.

It is always easy to spend someone else's money. Some current vaccines (not covid) cost over $100. Pfizer's is charging the government $19.50 per dose. That isn't a lot and if other countries can't pay that i can't blame Pfizer.

Should our govt buy the doses and then ship them overseas? That would certainly be a better use of fund than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. i would guess there will be a compromise solution at some point. Maybe the drug companies sell at cost or maybe our govt helps with some of the cost.

Companies are in business to make money so i can't fault them. If there are any charity doses sent out it will probably have to be subsidized by the government ie our tax dollars.

[Bronbron23]

Like it or not drug companies are in business to make money. If they didnt have financial incentives to develop and make the drugs then there would be no vaccines.

It is always easy to spend someone else's money. Some current vaccines (not covid) cost over $100. Pfizer's is charging the government $19.50 per dose. That isn't a lot and if other countries can't pay that i can't blame Pfizer.

Should our govt buy the doses and then ship them overseas? That would certainly be a better use of fund than the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. i would guess there will be a compromise solution at some point. Maybe the drug companies sell at cost or maybe our govt helps with some of the cost.

Companies are in business to make money so i can't fault them. If there are any charity doses sent out it will probably have to be subsidized by the government ie our tax dollars.

I get companies are in to make money but when it comes to a global pandemic they could do the right thing and make billions instead of trillions. Your acting like it's a matter of them barley being able to get by.

So no they shouldn't buy them and ship them for free they should only buy what they need and allow other countries to buy the rest. Again it's a matter of greed in both instances. Greed that's leading to millions getting sick and thousands dying. How you can ignore or accept this fact is interesting giving your stance on the problem the unvaccinated are causing.

[tontoz]

I get companies are in to make money but when it comes to a global pandemic they could do the right thing and make billions instead of trillions. Your acting like it's a matter of them barley being able to get by.

So no they shouldn't buy them and ship them for free they should only buy what they need and allow other countries to buy the rest. Again it's a matter of greed in both instances. Greed that's leading to millions getting sick and thousands dying. How you can ignore or accept this fact is interesting giving your stance on the problem the unvaccinated are causing.

Trillions? I think someone posted that there have been 380 million doses given out. No idea if that is right but let's use that.

Pfizer is charging 19.5 per dose. Let's assume their profit is $6 just a guess.

6 x 380 mill = 1.9 billion in profit so far. Just a guestimate but I don't think they are getting that rich on this at that price. Apparently moderna is charging only $15.

The road to a trillion is pretty long.

[Bronbron23]

Trillions? I think someone posted that there have been 380 million doses given out. No idea if that is right but let's use that.

Pfizer is charging 19.5 per dose. Let's assume their profit is $6 just a guess.

6 x 380 mill = 1.9 billion in profit so far. Just a guestimate but I don't think they are getting that rich on this at that price. Apparently moderna is charging only $15.

The road to a trillion is pretty long.

It was just a comparison it's not trillions but we are talking billions in sales. It's significantly higher than 1.9 billion. Here are some articles that highlight this.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...s-us-eu-africa

https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/...-vaccines/amp/

Here's another article highlighting how the greed of these wealthy countries will not only cost lives but cost the everyday person money. Meanwhile big pharma get filthy rich. https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-relea...r-rich-nations

[Cleverness]

Follow up questions ? Just you asking what the benefit of forced vaccinations are numbers wise.

We show you 80%+ of hospitalizations are amongst unvaccinated.

Anymore followup questions needed to understand basic facts?

The bolded statement does not answer the basic questions I presented and it needs context. See this post here for more details: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...1#post14432305

Anyways, the basic questions I asked were never answered. I'll try again.

1) What is the absolute risk reduction for hospitalization/death over 6-12 months after becoming fully vaccinated? You can break it down by age groups.

2a) Suppose the unvaccinated (group A) are forced to become vaccinated. How many from group A would have to become vaccinated to save 1 life from the group that voluntarily chose to become vaccinated (group B)? And over what timeframe?

2b) Suppose forcing person A to be injected with a drug reduced the chances of person B to die by 0.001% over the course of 12 months. Would it be worth it to force person A to be injected? At what point would it be worth it?

3 & 4 are more directed at Tontoz for his absurd claims, but I'll list them again in case you happen to agree with his narrative regarding "overwhelmed hospitals" due to covid and the necessity to force masking and social distancing:

3a) How many infections did school closures prevent from March 2020 to June 2021?

3b) How many infections have masks prevented so far, or through June 2021?

4) There are 3,006 counties and 50 states in the US. How many counties & states had overwhelmed hospitals due to Covid-19 in 2020? 2021? Let's take a look at the data.