Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late 30s

[kawhileonard2]

2022 Melo had already won a scoring title, 2022 Westbrook already had won a league mvp and is the all time leader in triple doubles. Also Dwight Howard who beat Lebron without HCA is a 3x DPOY. That's not including Anthony Davis who led in every stat in 2020.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ason_odds.html (Lakers 2nd)

[theman93]

MJ wasn't as conducive to his team winning games as 09 and 10 LeBron until Pippen became a superstar.

Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991. Yet MJ won the championship anyways.

[RRR3]

Fair point as the difference in conference matters. So you're right about that.

Westbrook's TS% was 55% without LeBron. So not sure why you're mentioning efficiency. I'm bringing up Melo and Howard because those guys were better than anything MJ had. Again, take your pick.

The point still stands.

Jesus Christ.

And small sample size needs to be accounted for. Westbrook's TS% was 50.9% without LeBron for a whole year in 2021, and he was widely considered better that year than he was this year.

[RRR3]

You're being disingenuous. Compared to Jahidi White, Chris Whitney, and Popeye Jones? C'mon bro.

Dwight averaged 6/6 last year He is Bismack Biyombo at this point. Melo is probably the worst defender in the NBA, dude can barely move. He was also horrendously inefficient for years before this but suddenly had decent efficiency again playing with LeBron, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with LeBron somehow. I'm not blaming him for being old it's just the reality.

[kawhileonard2]

MJ wasn't as conducive to his team winning games as 09 and 10 LeBron until Pippen became a superstar.

Lebron had Ben Wallace and then Shaq guys who won as the man already and yet Lebron loses with HCA.

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ason_odds.html (Lakers 1st)

https://www.basketball-reference.com...ason_odds.html (Lakers 2nd)

[HoopsNY]

Jesus Christ.

And small sample size needs to be accounted for. Westbrook's TS% was 50.9% without LeBron for a whole year in 2021, and he was widely considered better that year than he was this year.

I mentioned it because he improved without LeBron. Furthermore, you're stifling your conscience. You know very well LeBron had a much better cast than MJ did in 2002.

Heck, the Lakers were the favorites to win the title going into the season. Give MJ that cast and he posts a better record is my intuition, even as a Laker. You can disagree, so we'll just agree to disagree.

And you still haven't accounted for nearly a two year difference in age and MJ being removed three years from the league. MJ continuing to play plus the Lakers cast probably gets them into the play-in at least. You don't think that's at least reasonable? C'mon.

[RRR3]

Pippen wasn't an all-star in 1991. Yet MJ won the championship anyways.

He put up 18/7/6 on excellent efficiency and had an elite BPM. And second team all-defense. He then put up 22/9/6 on excellent efficiency in the playoffs while shutting down Magic Johnson. You gonna claim that isn't an all-star level player?

Kyrie and Love weren't All-Stars in 2016 and LeBron won anyways by this logic.

[theman93]

@RRR3 still waiting for you to answer the question:

How did old broken down 38 year old MJ lead the Wizards to a 30-30 record in the games he played in, while Lebron who is significantly better only lead the Lakers to a 25-31 record in the games he played in? All with a worse or equal supporting cast while also starting less games?

[HoopsNY]

Dwight averaged 6/6 last year He is Bismack Biyombo at this point. Melo is probably the worst defender in the NBA, dude can barely move. He was also horrendously inefficient for years before this but suddenly had decent efficiency again playing with LeBron, but I'm sure that has nothing to do with LeBron somehow. I'm not blaming him for being old it's just the reality.

Still better than anything Jahidi White could do, not to mention Howard's defense. Again, the Lakers' cast was better by a mile.

[HoopsNY]

He put up 18/7/6 on excellent efficiency and had an elite BPM. And second team all-defense. He then put up 22/9/6 on excellent efficiency in the playoffs while shutting down Magic Johnson. You gonna claim that isn't an all-star level player?

Kyrie and Love weren't All-Stars in 2016 and LeBron won anyways by this logic.

Kyrie missed most of the first half of the 2016 season, which is why he wasn't an all-star. C'mon RRR3, stop it.

[RRR3]

I mentioned it because he improved without LeBron. Furthermore, you're stifling your conscience. You know very well LeBron had a much better cast than MJ did in 2002.

Heck, the Lakers were the favorites to win the title going into the season. Give MJ that cast and he posts a better record is my intuition, even as a Laker. You can disagree, so we'll just agree to disagree.

And you still haven't accounted for nearly a two year difference in age and MJ being removed three years from the league. MJ continuing to play plus the Lakers cast probably gets them into the play-in at least. You don't think that's at least reasonable? C'mon.

The Lakers were the favorite because people are idiots. The LeBron and AD Lakers were the best team in the league in 2020 and 2021 as well when they were healthy. Westbrook comes and they become a joke. And you somehow list him as a positive? That makes zero sense.

I'll agree 02 MJ was better than LeBron if you agree 09 LeBron is better than any version of MJ before Pippen became a star. But you can't be consistent can you?

[HoopsNY]

@RRR3 still waiting for you to answer the question:

How did old broken down 38 year old MJ lead the Wizards to a 30-30 record in the games he played in, while Lebron who is significantly better only lead the Lakers to a 25-31 record in the games he played in? All with a worse or equal supporting cast while also starting less games?

Their casts weren't even close. LAL's cast was better by a mile.

[theman93]

He put up 18/7/6 on excellent efficiency and had an elite BPM. And second team all-defense. He then put up 22/9/6 on excellent efficiency in the playoffs while shutting down Magic Johnson. You gonna claim that isn't an all-star level player?

Kyrie and Love weren't All-Stars in 2016 and LeBron won anyways by this logic.

Your criteria was "superstar". Pippen wasn't even All-NBA until 1992. So your argument is refuted.

[HoopsNY]

The Lakers were the favorite because people are idiots. The LeBron and AD Lakers were the best team in the league in 2020 and 2021 as well when they were healthy. Westbrook comes and they become a joke. And you somehow list him as a positive? That makes zero sense.

I'll agree 02 MJ was better than LeBron if you agree 09 LeBron is better than any version of MJ before Pippen became a star. But you can't be consistent can you?

You don't have to agree that '02 MJ > '22 LeBron. But to act like the Lakers' cast wasn't better is beyond ridiculous.

[theman93]

Their casts weren't even close. LAL's cast was better by a mile.

You have to understand that I'm lowering the bar so low because apparently it's not fair to hold Lebron to the standard of making the play-in last year. LOL.