Wizards jordon was worse than nearly any all-time great who played until his late 30s

[theman93]

No one has ever been held to these standards at LeBron’s age. People were happy when Kobe hit a shot when he was 37.

Lol you don't get it both ways. If he's still credited for being great because he has the best longevity of all-time, then making the play-in over the measley 34 win Spurs who traded away Derrick White in the middle of the season is a completely reasonable standard to hold him to. Anything less is laughable.

[HoopsNY]

Who the **** did LeBron have in 09 lmao? Role players.

Compared to MJ? Mo Williams was an All-Star. He also had Ilgauskas, a former 2 time All-Star.

CLE w/Ilgauskas '09: 55-10 | .846% (69 win pace)
CLE w/o Ilgauskas '09: 11-6 | .647% (53 win pace)

You can say MJ had Oakley, i'll give you that. But Oakley alone doesn't offset Mo Williams, Zydrunas, Varajeo, and West.

[theman93]

Not sure what gives you this impression. Were you watching the league in 2002? White was an absolute scrub who had no potential.

White w/MJ '02: 5.5 PPG | 6.4 Rebs | 55% FG%
White w/o MJ '02: 4.9 PPG 5.5 Reb | 49% FG%

What about Howard?

Howard w/LeBron '22: 5.3 PPG | 5.7 Rebs | 59% FG%
Howard w/o LeBron '22: 7.6 PPG | 6.3 Rebs | 64% FG%

Just because the overall stats were similar doesn't mean the two players were similar in caliber or what they brought to the table.

You're not wrong that the Lakers were the best team with AD and LeBron when healthy in 2020 for example. Dynamics changed though and context matters, which you've proven in this instance. I'm just unsure why that matters more than say MJ joining an entirely new team, with a worst cast, and also being three years removed from the league.

Those factors tilt the scales a bit when adjusting for conference. Tbh, I can't lie, I don't know what the hell happened with LAL last year and it's pretty mind boggling. But it's a negative in LeBron's scale simply because that team, on paper, and prior to the season starting was expected to win it all.

You have people on this thread acting like LeBron was significantly better. I don't see how that's justifiable given the results and higher quality of casts. Washington's cast was horrible. The Laker's cast was decent. There's no way around that.

No, he wasn't. He didn't start seriously watching the NBA until 2011 by his own admission. It's obvious too with how he's trying to prop up the likes of Chris Whitney and Jahidi freaking White lmao. Certified scrubs as everyone knew who actually watched those guys.

Similar casts? lol, whut? Keep in mind, you're using '88 as if having rookie Pippen and rookie Grant somehow makes for great cast. That's pretty outlandish and you know it.

Yeah similar casts bro with rookie Grant and Pippen starting a combined 6 of 160 games

[HoopsNY]

No one has ever been held to these standards at LeBron’s age. People were happy when Kobe hit a shot when he was 37. I’m sorry LeBron isn’t immortal and can’t impact a team the same way forever like you think he should be able to

I don't think it was a matter of standards based on age. I think being champions in 2020 and then the combination of AD-Melo-LeBron-Westbrook-Howard together with other smaller role players is something that was fair.

If one thing is for sure, even if you said that favoring them to win the title was absurd, I don't think you or anyone else would have said they wouldn't have even made the play-in. And that's even with injuries. It's just not something that any reasonable fan would have expected.

[HoopsNY]

No, he wasn't. He didn't start seriously watching the NBA until 2011 by his own admission. It's obvious too with how he's trying to prop up the likes of Chris Whitney and Jahidi freaking White lmao. Certified scrubs as everyone knew who actually watched those guys.


Yeah similar casts bro with rookie Grant and Pippen starting a combined 6 of 160 games

Ahh okay. If he started watching the league in the 2010s, then it makes sense as to why he would rely on statistics alone. No one who watched Jahidi White would say they would take him over Dwight Howard. And no one would certainly choose a combination of Rip, White, Laettner, Whitney, and Jones over guys like AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard.

It's just not even remotely close. And even if we adjust for conferences, which is fair, I don't think it offsets the difference in casts, the fact that MJ and LeBron were nearly 2 years apart, and that MJ was out of the league for three years.

2022 is a bigger stain on LeBron's career than MJ's stint with the Wizards. No one really expected anything from those Wizards teams.

[FilmyCogTurner]

I like how posters here compare stats and come to the conclusion that both players are equal while also ignoring all of the other components that make up a basketball player.

[theman93]

Ahh okay. If he started watching the league in the 2010s, then it makes sense as to why he would rely on statistics alone. No one who watched Jahidi White would say they would take him over Dwight Howard. And no one would certainly choose a combination of Rip, White, Laettner, Whitney, and Jones over guys like AD, Westbrook, Melo, Monk, and Howard.

It's just not even remotely close. And even if we adjust for conferences, which is fair, I don't think it offsets the difference in casts, the fact that MJ and LeBron were nearly 2 years apart, and that MJ was out of the league for three years.

2022 is a bigger stain on LeBron's career than MJ's stint with the Wizards. No one really expected anything from those Wizards teams.

And here's the kicker. Even if you did want to take Jordan's '02 supporting cast over Lebrons '22 supporting cast, Lebron being the supposed significantly superior player should be what put his team way over the top compared to Jordan's. But it didn't.

Regarding the conferences, and I've already made this point repeatedly which no one wanted to touch, the 2022 Western Conference teams only averaged 1.4 more wins than the 2002 Eastern Conference teams. And that's with their admission that the early '00 East was the weakest it ever was.

[Xiao Yao You]

Compared to MJ? Mo Williams was an All-Star. He also had Ilgauskas, a former 2 time All-Star.

CLE w/Ilgauskas '09: 55-10 | .846% (69 win pace)
CLE w/o Ilgauskas '09: 11-6 | .647% (53 win pace)

You can say MJ had Oakley, i'll give you that. But Oakley alone doesn't offset Mo Williams, Zydrunas, Varajeo, and West.

Who cares that he had Oakley? They traded Oakley because they liked Horace better. Oakley nor Horace were all stars like a couple of those guys mentioned

[Xiao Yao You]

I don't think it was a matter of standards based on age. I think being champions in 2020 and then the combination of AD-Melo-LeBron-Westbrook-Howard together with other smaller role players is something that was fair.

If one thing is for sure, even if you said that favoring them to win the title was absurd, I don't think you or anyone else would have said they wouldn't have even made the play-in. And that's even with injuries. It's just not something that any reasonable fan would have expected.

I thought it was laughable that the so called experts thought the Lakers were a favorite. But I certainly didn't think they'd be as bad as they were

[Xiao Yao You]

I like how posters here compare stats and come to the conclusion that both players are equal while also ignoring all of the other components that make up a basketball player.

I like how they try to tell you how things were in the 80's and 90's when they weren't even around yet

[FilmyCogTurner]

It always intrigues me how the early Bulls team would have played out had they kept Oakley and used Horace as the trade piece for a center instead.

Ho Grant played his role well but he really was a bitch of a man on the court. Zero toughness at all and Oak was the exact opposite. Who knows, maybe the Bulls could have been even better.

[Xiao Yao You]

It always intrigues me how the early Bulls team would have played out had they kept Oakley and used Horace as the trade piece for a center instead.

Ho Grant played his role well but he really was a bitch of a man on the court. Zero toughness at all and Oak was the exact opposite. Who knows, maybe the Bulls could have been even better.

Oakley was close with MJ too. Hard to imagine that the Bulls would have been better without Horace though. He was the key to their full court press that they could use to put any team away at any time. They didn't have that in the 2nd repeat. They both played D but Horace was more versatile and athletic than Oakley. Don't remember Oakley being considered a great defender until later on the Knicks either. They both could hit it from mid range. Oakley was a better rebounder and passer. He couldn't jump at all

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah bro not even close........even though the Pistons beat the #1 seed Celtics in '88 with the Celtics having homecourt advantage and McHale putting up 27/7 and Bird putting up 20/12/6/3/2. And that was before they were even a title team. They were 3 points away from 3-peating.

What separated the early-mid 80's Celtics teams from their late 80s version was their bench. By '88 KC Jones strictly played their starters it seemed.

Not to mention DJ was on the decline by '88, Parish regressed a bit and McHale was never really the same after he broke his foot in '87, especially oh the defensive end.

Again, history looks at the Celtics as the better team. Shit, the Rockets repeated in the mid 90's, would you dare say they were better than the mid 80's Celtics just because they repeated as champs? Lol

[outofstomach]

No one has ever been held to these standards at LeBron’s age. People were happy when Kobe hit a shot when he was 37. I’m sorry LeBron isn’t immortal and can’t impact a team the same way forever like you think he should be able to

ah, so when lebron’s team is doing good and everything is fine; it’s “omg lebron is doing this at 37, he’s the goat and better than jordan” the inverse it’s “sorry lebron isn’t immortal, he’s only 37 cut him some slack”

you ****** are honestly shameless, it’s impressive how increasingly delusional you lot got every year as ive lurked this forum

[theman93]

ah, so when lebron’s team is doing good and everything is fine; it’s “omg lebron is doing this at 37, he’s the goat and better than jordan” the inverse it’s “sorry lebron isn’t immortal, he’s only 37 cut him some slack”

you ****** are honestly shameless, it’s impressive how increasingly delusional you lot got every year as ive lurked this forum

The double standard really is hilarious