How do you go about ranking Kobe Bryant?

[Thenameless]

-He's concluded and dismissed as being below Magic and Bird - two players that were never defensive players and don't have the longevity that Kobe has.
?

I value defense, and less so longevity. That being said, Kobe's advantage on defense over those two (which only exists for quick point of attack players as the other two would be better at guarding bigger players) would not overcome the advantage that Bird and Magic bring to the rest of the game. I think a similar modern comparison would be Giannis vs Jokic. Bird/Magic/Jokic bring a strong culture and cohesion that permeates the whole team's attitude and is very conducive to winning. Kobe and Giannis are outstanding individual talents that don't elevate their teammates to the same degree.

[bizil]

SOME REASONS WHY you could list Kobe in the top 5 GOAT are:

- Over 30,000 points

- 5 Rings (on all five title teams he was the closer EVEN THOUGH Shaq was the best player for the first 3)

- When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing for his position, rebounding for his position, and defense ARGUABLY the most skilled player of all time.

- In terms of LONGEVITY, he was a great player LONGER than any SG to ever play.

- Was THE FACE OF THE NBA at one point in time. He's one of the VERY SMALL amount of guys who ACTUALLY transcended the NBA!

I got MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic as my top 4 GOAT. They have the BEST BALANCE of GOAT criteria. That criteria is:

- Team Accolades

- Solo Accolades

- Numbers

- Peak-prime value

- Longevity being great

- Impact on the league (rules change because of you, being a true face of the league helping grow the game, redefining a position or style of play, etc.)

The MVP count is what hurts Kobe in comparison to these four. The MVP is OFTEN based on media narratives. Many of those voters are casual fans as well. THEY AREN'T students of the game like us on here. But in ANY SPORT, it's HELLA RARE when you have players the stature of Kobe and Shaq WITH only one MVP. But BOTH check so many other boxes that I see why people include them in a top 5 GOAT. Bill Russell's peak-prime value ISN'T CLOSE to top 10 of all time.

BUT his solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the game are SO GREAT that he deserves to be in the top 5 GOAT. My only locks are MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic for the top 5 GOAT. After that, Wilt, Bill Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan I'M SURE have many people putting them in the top 5 GOAT for various reasons. Not to mention you have Steph,KD, Joker, and Giannis who have the GOODS to shake up the top 10 GOAT list at some point too. But when it comes to Kobe DOES HE bring enough to the table to be top 5 GOAT DESPITE having only 1 regular season MVP. I would say YES!

[Baller234]

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.

[Nowitness]

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.

If we apply this same logic to LA, Shaq went 36-8 in games Kobe missed, Kobe went 55-47 in games Shaq missed.

[Carbine]

Shaq was dominant but Kobe was the battery in HIS back, not the other way around.

Same goes for Penny. Shaq was a beast in Orlando but without Penny the team goes nowhere. In 95-96 Shaq only played 54 games yet Orlando still won 60 games. Penny led them to 20-8 without him.

Dumb narrative. Guess what happens when you take away a great #2 on a team? They get worse! It's incredible isn't it?

Jokic without Murray is not winning anything if importance. It's not a knock on an ATG when you take away their great #2 and the team can't win.

[tpols]

SOME REASONS WHY you could list Kobe in the top 5 GOAT are:

- Over 30,000 points

- 5 Rings (on all five title teams he was the closer EVEN THOUGH Shaq was the best player for the first 3)

- When u combine scoring skillset, handles, passing for his position, rebounding for his position, and defense ARGUABLY the most skilled player of all time.

- In terms of LONGEVITY, he was a great player LONGER than any SG to ever play.

- Was THE FACE OF THE NBA at one point in time. He's one of the VERY SMALL amount of guys who ACTUALLY transcended the NBA!

I got MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic as my top 4 GOAT. They have the BEST BALANCE of GOAT criteria. That criteria is:

- Team Accolades

- Solo Accolades

- Numbers

- Peak-prime value

- Longevity being great

- Impact on the league (rules change because of you, being a true face of the league helping grow the game, redefining a position or style of play, etc.)

The MVP count is what hurts Kobe in comparison to these four. The MVP is OFTEN based on media narratives. Many of those voters are casual fans as well. THEY AREN'T students of the game like us on here. But in ANY SPORT, it's HELLA RARE when you have players the stature of Kobe and Shaq WITH only one MVP. But BOTH check so many other boxes that I see why people include them in a top 5 GOAT. Bill Russell's peak-prime value ISN'T CLOSE to top 10 of all time.

BUT his solo accolades, team accolades, and impact on the game are SO GREAT that he deserves to be in the top 5 GOAT. My only locks are MJ, Bron, Cap, and Magic for the top 5 GOAT. After that, Wilt, Bill Russell, Shaq, Kobe, Bird, and Duncan I'M SURE have many people putting them in the top 5 GOAT for various reasons. Not to mention you have Steph,KD, Joker, and Giannis who have the GOODS to shake up the top 10 GOAT list at some point too. But when it comes to Kobe DOES HE bring enough to the table to be top 5 GOAT DESPITE having only 1 regular season MVP. I would say YES!

Yea... Kobe was one of those guys even your mom who doesn't watch a lick of basketball would know. Up there with Jordan, Shaq, Magic, Bird, Bron etc. Even guys like Garnett and Dirk and Jokic are unknown to the general public that don't follow ball.

[tpols]

If we apply this same logic to LA, Shaq went 36-8 in games Kobe missed, Kobe went 55-47 in games Shaq missed.

And then Shaq would get swept out the playoffs without prime Kobe or Wade two GOAT shooting guards. He wasn't good enough to win with Penny who was a Pippen or Pau level player.

[RogueBorg]

Okay question for the thread aside from Jordan what other Shooting Guard would you rank ahead of Kobe

No one. Kobe is the second greatest SG ever.

[RogueBorg]

Wade was more atheltic than Reggie but Miller was a far better shooter than Wade. Reggie was also more productive for a longer period of time needing less talent around him than Wade. I don't think Wade ever led any team to a title...he helped his team to a title Lebron, Shaq, Payton, Bosh, and Mourning also had a hand in those titles.

Reggie Miller couldn't pass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't play defense. He has zero rings, zero scoring titles, zero assist titles, zero steals titles, nothing. No MVP's, no All-Star MVP's, no FMVP's again nothing. He only ever received MVP votes in 1998 and 2000 out of the 18 seasons he played. All he could do was shoot.

[John8204]

Reggie Miller couldn't pass, couldn't rebound, and couldn't play defense. He has zero rings, zero scoring titles, zero assist titles, zero steals titles, nothing. No MVP's, no All-Star MVP's, no FMVP's again nothing. He only ever received MVP votes in 1998 and 2000 out of the 18 seasons he played. All he could do was shoot.

Win Shares -
Reggie 15th
Wade - 46th

VORP
22. Reggie Miller* 66.07
23. Paul Pierce* 65.54
24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18
25. Dwyane Wade* 62.80

I mean really...he couldn't pass and rebound....
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Rebounds 4,182 (3.0 rpg)
Assists 4,141 (3.0 apg)

Those are pretty good numbers seeing as he was playing with Mark Jackson and Detlef Schrempf. I'm not saying it's wrong to put Wade ahead of Reggie it's a choice I watched both players growing up and Reggie was better in my opinion. But as I said with the Kobe thing...how many SG's are you putting between Reggie and Wade

[Carbine]

I usually don't get involved in the player vs player debates because usually it's not so wrong to be on one side or the other that it's worth arguing over.

But Miller vs Wade needs to be addressed. Wade was a better player in his peak, without a debate. He has a title as the undisputed lead man (Miller didn't do this) and he was viewed as at worst a top 3 player in his peak years (Miller never did this)

As pure basketball players he could create far beyond Miller ever could. He was a better defender in all facets.

[Axe]

Win Shares -
Reggie 15th
Wade - 46th

VORP
22. Reggie Miller* 66.07
23. Paul Pierce* 65.54
24. Scottie Pippen* 63.18
25. Dwyane Wade* 62.80

I mean really...he couldn't pass and rebound....
Rebounds 4,933 (4.7 rpg)
Assists 5,701 (5.4 apg)

Rebounds 4,182 (3.0 rpg)
Assists 4,141 (3.0 apg)

Those are pretty good numbers seeing as he was playing with Mark Jackson and Detlef Schrempf. I'm not saying it's wrong to put Wade ahead of Reggie it's a choice I watched both players growing up and Reggie was better in my opinion. But as I said with the Kobe thing...how many SG's are you putting between Reggie and Wade

Why don't you just tell that you credit miller this much because he represents the first team that kobe faced in the finals?

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Oh wow, you went to made up advanced statistics. What good is TS% when you're shooting free throws to ice the game? How come these invented statistics are only relevant when you want it to be?

And even if we were to play your game, Lebron's career TS% is .58 and Kobe's is .55. Oh wow, a whole 3% difference. I guess that's sure fire proof that Lebron was the better basketball player.

It’s not sure-fire proof, but the superficial closeness only underscores that basketball, like most sports, is a game of fine margins at the top. It doesn’t, however, make it any less of a tick in LeBron’s favour.

3% (you’re rounding down btw, it’s 3.8%) is a rounding error over the course of a game. Over the course of a career, it’s a hearty advantage.

Also I'm curious, does this logic still apply? It looks like Lebron's highest TS% for a season was .64 back in 2012.

Here are the players who had a higher TS% than that just last season:

- Zion
- Giannis
- Curry
- Durant
- Jokic

I guess considering that these players had more efficient seasons than Lebron had throughout his entire career, they all must be better than Lebron.

I don’t think ‘87 was touting LeBron’s efficiency edge as the sole reason for his superiority.

Beyond that, one has to adjust for offensive environment; failing to relativize makes the comparison disingenuous. LeBron’s highest TS+ in a season was 120. Here were theirs last year:

Jokic - 121
Durant - 116
Curry - 113
Zion - 112
Giannis - 111

Most of these guys are on the shortlist of most efficient scorers in league history, so it’s no shame on LeBron for them to rival him in that regard…but it doesn’t necessitate them being better players, nor was that 87’s argument. I’m sure none of us here would feel any consternation about admitting that Durant, for instance, is a better scorer than LeBron while simultaneously trailing him as a basketball player.

[PejaTheSerbSnip]

Good thread btw, sparked some nice discussion. Kobe is and probably always will be a polarizing player. He is a poster-boy (for better and worse) of two separate schools of thought/types of fans. Even just my own opinion about him as a basketball player has swung wildly — as a kid I regularly watched him play foil to my Kings, and held him in the highest esteem as a result. As time wore on I could no longer entertain the idea of him holding off LeBron in the all-time rankings, much as I tried (believe it or not, I was a huge LeBron hater right up to my late teens).

Now, well, I still think he’s nowhere near LeBron (lol), but nonetheless believe the analytics-adjacent folks actually underrate him. I recently heard the Wages of Wins folks claim he isn’t a Top 25 player OAT and had to do a double and triple-take. The less poindexter-y ones like Taylor can see the forest for the trees (his characterization of Kobe’s “inelastic offence” persuasively argues that he received too much flak for his supposed “inefficiency”)…but they’re not always the norm. Kobe had a very balanced floor game with a lot hidden strengths (turnover economy, sneaky-great court vision, good rebounding for a guard) and also authored a handful of high-quality defensive seasons. If his offensive and defensive peaks overlapped, I’d have him in my Top 8. If he actually earned *all* of those All-D selections, he’s pushing Top 5…but we know he didn’t. Currently, these are the guys I rank ahead:

Jordan
LBJ
KAJ
Russell
Duncan
Hakeem
Shaq
Magic
Bird
Wilt

He is in the next cluster of players, roughly interchangeable with West, Big O and Curry.

So, he’s somewhere in the 11-14 slots.

Sidenote but, if there’s one player I really waffle on, it’s KG. No one without an agenda can look at the rosters and situations surrounding him in his first 12 years (iow, most of his prime) and argue he should’ve eked a title. He was flanked with a terrible supporting cast (aside from perhaps ‘04) and one of the worst owners in league history. I still think he was a tier below Duncan, but is it entirely coincidental that once their supporting casts were basically equalized, so too was their output and effect on winning (well, more or less)? No one had a more wasted prime. If I had a bit more conviction I’d probably lump him in with Kobe. But I don’t, so I won’t. Ergo, 11-14.

[Walk on Water]

Lebron was a shot away from 2013 being another 2011.

Ray saved his legacy because up to that point Pop had employed the "sag defense" and limited him. Everybody forgot about boris diaw memes because of Rays shot. Bron basically went off only after Ray flipped the momentum and snatched victory from the certain Jaws of defeat.

Then the Heat went on to get blown out by the biggest margin of victory in NBA Finals history the next year besides Lebrons loss to the warriors in 2018.

Lebron literally holds records for being blown out after team hopping all around the league.

Even internationally outside the NBA brand Lebron was on bronze teams and needed Kobe to go off in The Championship game vs Spain to win Gold.

Kobe was just... better at basketball.

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