ISH all-time draft thread

[DJMcDonald]

Nash is the worst defender ever, Shaq would be a liability defending the pick and roll because he's not mobile enough if we're talking about 400 pounds Lakers Shaq, Dirk has never been known for his defense and McGrady is a shit defender as well

Everything you just said is wrong. Something tells me you've never seen Dirk or Tmac play. Who do you think Dirk was guarding when he was beating KG and Duncan in the playoffs

And LA Shaq is a lot more mobile than Jokic is. That's the guy you want to guard MDE Shaq and you want to talk about my defensive liabilities?

[Manny98]

This guy really trying to claim Dirk was some elite defender

I have zero defensive liabilities, Jokic has always been a plus defender, Denver were significantly worse defensively when he was off the floor

[DJMcDonald]

This is a shit defender according to Manny

[DJMcDonald]

This guy really trying to claim Dirk was some elite defender

I have zero defensive liabilities, Jokic has always been a plus defender, Denver were significantly worse defensively when he was off the floor

Watch a game for once you won't look so stupid

[Manny98]

McGrady is an elite defender now

[DJMcDonald]

I forgot I was speaking to a retard

[tpols]

Shaq and Dirk aren't providing shit on the defensive end

You need athletic mobile guys that can switch in today's game

Imagine fielding Steve Nash, Shaq and Dirk at the same time and thinking you're going to get defensive stops against the teams we have on display here

It honestly depends which version of Shaq he chooses. Younger, leaner mid 90s Orlando Shaq could move. He was a monster athlete. Shaq was a paint bully... when he tried he could lock down the most important part of the court.

Steve Nash was a poor defender but Luka is arguably even worse. Nash at least tried, Luka is literally just fat and lazy. So while iamigine does have a better defense because of his front court, his guards can be picked on. AK47 and young tmac before the back injuries could play serious defense as well.

The problem though is on the other side of the court. That Shaq Dirk inside out dynamic is far superior offensively to playoff Drob and KG. Shit... we saw Dirk light Garnetts squad up in the playoffs back in the early 2000s. And then he has Nash throwing oops and dimes to TMAC and Raptor Vince Carter and Shaq?

It would literally be a dunkathon. That team wouldn't rely on hot or cold 3pt spam. They would be dunking the ball over and over and over. With Dirk and Nash occasionally sniping.

[j3lademaster]

McGrady is an elite defender now

He picked his spots, but he was a good defender when he wanted to be. Should be no surprise due to how gifted he is.

[j3lademaster]

It honestly depends which version of Shaq he chooses. Younger, leaner mid 90s Orlando Shaq could move. He was a monster athlete. Shaq was a paint bully... when he tried he could lock down the most important part of the court.

Steve Nash was a poor defender but Luka is arguably even worse. Nash at least tried, Luka is literally just fat and lazy. So while iamigine does have a better defense because of his front court, his guards can be picked on. AK47 and young tmac before the back injuries could play serious defense as well.

The problem though is on the other side of the court. That Shaq Dirk inside out dynamic is far superior offensively to playoff Drob and KG. Shit... we saw Dirk light Garnetts squad up in the playoffs back in the early 2000s. And then he has Nash throwing oops and dimes to TMAC and Raptor Vince Carter and Shaq?

It would literally be a dunkathon. That team wouldn't rely on hot or cold 3pt spam. They would be dunking the ball over and over and over. With Dirk and Nash occasionally sniping.

Shaq was definitely the laziest defender of the bunch. He had no business being consistently beat by the primitive pnr’s 20-30 years ago especially with how much of an athletic beast he was. He was just incredibly lazy hedging and closing out on shooters, which goes from bad back then to a complete death sentence today. But if you ever come into the paint Shaq has that shit locked down. Offensively, hack a Shaq is more effective in a higher ppp environment since Shaq’s ppp shooting free throws are going to be fixed and you’re probably not running another elite rebounder next to him.

[tpols]

Shaq was definitely the laziest defender of the bunch. He had no business being consistently beat by the primitive pnr’s 20-30 years ago especially with how much of an athletic beast he was. He was just incredibly lazy hedging and closing out on shooters, which goes from bad back then to a complete death sentence today. But if you ever come into the paint Shaq has that shit locked down. Offensively, hack a Shaq is more effective in a higher ppp environment since Shaq’s ppp shooting free throws are going to be fixed and you’re probably not running another elite rebounder next to him.

Yea a lot of that is true about Shaq, but I just don't see how anybody is guarding him on the other end. He straight up required a double in his prime pretty much every time, and it usually came from the opposing teams power forward. So what does a defense do when Dirk is the PF? They cant possibly double with Dirks man. And hack a Shaq with an 8 man roster is going to foul out your big men real quick. With that type of dynamic Shaq is going to be slam dunking in single coverage all day or Dirk is going to be taking wide open 3s. I don't really see a great defensive counter to this.

[1987_Lakers]

Thread is up

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/vie...?f=6&t=2401477

[j3lademaster]

Yea a lot of that is true about Shaq, but I just don't see how anybody is guarding him on the other end. He straight up required a double in his prime pretty much every time, and it usually came from the opposing teams power forward. So what does a defense do when Dirk is the PF? They cant possibly double with Dirks man. And hack a Shaq with an 8 man roster is going to foul out your big men real quick. With that type of dynamic Shaq is going to be slam dunking in single coverage all day or Dirk is going to be taking wide open 3s. I don't really see a great defensive counter to this.

No one’s stopping early 2000’s mde Shaq, but the closest to ever containing him on a regular basis was Yao. He’d overpower Yao and get to the basket, but Yao would still bother him with his length especially when he doesn’t even have to leave the floor and made Shaq uncomfortable on the other end having to close out on his automatic shooting. Duncan was probably the best Shaq defender but did have help from oldman admiral in the earlier years.

Playoffs:

Shaq | 22.4 PTS 12.8 REB 2.2 AST 0.7 STL 2.8 BLK on 54.2% TS (Career 24.3 PTS on 56.5% TS)

Duncan | 25.6 PTS 13.0 REB 3.8 AST 0.9 STL 2.4 BLK on 54.7% TS (Career 20.6 PTS on 54.8% TS)

Regular Season Record: Shaq 18-14 Duncan

Playoffs Record: Shaq 15-15 Duncan

The stats are more even when you consider 5 games are old Suns Shaqtus, but the other 25 games were between rookie TD and 2004.

I’m hoping with Duncan and Wemby being able to replicate Yao’s length at the rim we can slow down Shaq ENOUGH to win.

[dankok8]

I've been watching a lot of Orlando Shaq and tracking his games lately. He's actually kind of much worse on defense than I thought. He commits bad fouls including when he's in foul trouble and isn't as lazy in rotating as he just makes poor rotations. He frequently gets on islands on the perimeter when he should be in the paint. When he's vertical in the paint waiting for someone to come at him, he's very good at protecting the rim and he's a good post defender (like say vs. Hakeem in the 95 Finals he was playing good defense) but generally it's hard for me to see Orlando Shaq as even much of a positive on D. The 2000 or 2001 version is much better on defense. Fouls less, crashes the defensive glass more, stays in the paint and makes smarter rotations. Like a tier ahead easily.

[Wally450]

Bill Russell was a strong ball-handler, passer, and roll-and-cut finisher. He unfortunately played in an era that suppressed those offensive strengths. He was forced to take a lot of jump shots and post-up isolation plays which weren't his strengths. It helps to explain his scoring efficiency.

He's a 75% FG guy at the rim according to a 500-possession tracking sample from RealGM poster Dipper 13. There just weren't many good opportunities to get there for a guy with Bill's archetype because of the clogged paint and restrictive rules regarding dribbling, carrying, traveling, and offensive fouls (offensive players weren't allowed to anywhere near as physical as they are now).

Offensively, Bill in the modern game is an elite rim-runner who can handle the ball and pass like Joakim/Dray and slash like Ben Simmons/Giannis. He would lead the break and get 4-8 ppg from that alone. Add that to 13-15 ppg from rolling, cutting, face-up slashing, sealing, and put-backs. Add 6-8 assists and you've got a legitimate DHO/short-roll passing hub.

Great post!

[Carbine]

I've been watching a lot of Orlando Shaq and tracking his games lately. He's actually kind of much worse on defense than I thought. He commits bad fouls including when he's in foul trouble and isn't as lazy in rotating as he just makes poor rotations. He frequently gets on islands on the perimeter when he should be in the paint. When he's vertical in the paint waiting for someone to come at him, he's very good at protecting the rim and he's a good post defender (like say vs. Hakeem in the 95 Finals he was playing good defense) but generally it's hard for me to see Orlando Shaq as even much of a positive on D. The 2000 or 2001 version is much better on defense. Fouls less, crashes the defensive glass more, stays in the paint and makes smarter rotations. Like a tier ahead easily.

It's very clear to anyone willing to educate themselves. Orlando Shaq was missing a lot of intangibles, the small details in his game. He got by on his true 1 of 1 physical talent and strength.

2000 was the first time he acquired everything. He was much better at the little things, his dedication to defense was on point and just his overall mentality. I believe this was the ONLY year he put everything together in all facets of the game consistently.