No one ever "counted" losses until Lebron

[StrongLurk]

Humans often get smarter with time, so now people realize that looking at a player's record against Finals teams (the best teams) is a good idea.

It's quite revealing given a sufficient sample size... For example, it's clear that a player with a 22-33 record (lottery record) against Finals teams produces weaker team ceilings than players that produced a 24-13 record in the Finals (MJ, Curry or Kobe).. The difference is ball-domination, since Magic has a losing 24-26 record in the Finals just like Lebron - essentially, ball-dominators have losing Finals records (Lebron, Magic, Westbrook, Harden, Luka, etc), while highly-assisted skillsets like bigs or jumpshooters produce more sophisticated ball movement and levels of team offense so they have winning Finals records (Kareem, Duncan, MJ, Curry, Kobe)... SGA is the first winning primary ballhandler in the Finals but he isn't really a high-assist player - he actually closes a lot of possessions himself via mid-range assassin, so he's more like Kobe/MJ despite his primary ballhandler role and low assisted rate.

btw, in addition to having all the winning Finals records, highly-assisted skillsets like bigs or jumpshooters are the 1st option for all the best teams, aka dynasties (3 in 5), or dominant title runs (1 loss average per round, 4 losses max).

Lebron has more FMVPs than Kobe and Curry combined.

Lebron also has more MVPS than Kobe and Curry combined.

[Full Court]

Lebron has more FMVPs than Kobe and Curry combined.

Lebron also has more MVPS than Kobe and Curry combined.

Lebron has more choke jobs than Curry, Kobe, Jordan, Duncan, and Wilt combined.

[sdot_thadon]

Baylor was never denigrated as a player becuase of his finals record. We didn't treat great players the way we treat Lebron EVER. The thing you could say was held against Baylor was his retiring without having won a ring at all. That was a thing that "validated" your greatness and completely different from Lebron's situation. We later saw this with guys like Ewing, Barkley and Malone. Iverson. More recently Melo. That asterisk of * never won a championship aside their name. Guys that won? They were good for life and just waiting for their hall of fame call. And even with that, i never saw a single bad view of Baylor or his career. Wilt was one of the only guys i can remember having really any sort of negative press surrounding his career. And the negative wasn't a 2-4 finals record, it was the perception that he quit in a finals series. And even with this he was widely regarded as
Goat for a period of time. Some people saw Oscar Robertson as the goat with only a sidekick ring to his name. Finals record was never a thing until Lebron. Most of the shit i've seen people bitch and moan about with Lebron was never a thing before him. I feel like it has alot to do with the times, Floyd Mayweather was also hated harder than I ever saw a great boxer get hated on. Hot take media really warped the minds of sports fans too. And with that shift people's concept of what greatness actually is began to change. Post 80s i cant really recall many people talking about Bill Russell as perhaps the greatest of all time. But 30 years later never having logged another single minute, he's seen as a greater player than Wilt in an all time sense. I've always been intrigued by all time debates since I was a kid. Lebron brought about some shit I've never seen in these conversations before him.

[Kblaze8855]

I honestly can't believe you're trying to dig in your heels on this. All things in basketball have always been about percentages and averages. That's literally the basis of basically every basketball statistic -- how many positives out of a total.

You're really trying to sell me on the idea that win/loss records in the Finals is the one exclusion?

So, answer me this: Players since the beginning of time have been heavily judged for their Finals performance regardless of whether they won or lost. I can run through a number of critiques from decades ago, even against the winner. We even have an example in 2010 when Kobe not only won, not only won Finals MVP, but that made it his 5th title and even he did not escape criticism for his stats. This 2010 run was back when LeBron only had 1 Finals appearance to his name.

But, again, the criticism was not a new thing in 2010, I want to make that clear. I only use it as the prime example because it shows that even a great with 5 finals wins, and on the winning side of the equation was not exempt.

So, are you really trying to completely reimagine media history where negative criticism had always been socially accepted for STATS in a Finals, but actual LOSS of a Finals was NOT judged with any criticism and simply never existed? Do you not recall the heavy criticism Kobe faced in 2004 after being a 3-peater (this is even before LeBron ever had a Finals loss)? And you're still saying losses didn't matter?

If your answer is still that losing never mattered, I'll give it a rest, because there's no hope for you. It would either mean you've lied to yourself so long it's become your reality, or you have severe memory loss.

what I’m telling you is that I’ve been having and reading these discussions for 40 years. What I am telling you is that I’ve been having them online for over 25 years. And I am telling you I’m not sure I even heard the term finals record used in a negative light until Lebron got to 2/5.

i’m telling you the simple fact that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were unbelievably respected and highly ranked despite having the worst finals records imaginable. I’m telling you my entire childhood and beyond Jerry West was referred to as Mr. clutch for hitting big shots and losing in the finals.

I’m telling you my stepdad and his friend who was in the NBA in the 70s thought I was the biggest idiot alive talking shit about Elgin Baylor in the 80s. In retrospect, I didn’t really know what I was talking about, though. I didn’t know quite a few facts. The fact that he lost in the finals wasn’t even among the things I was talking about.

It simply was not a part of the discussion in a negative light. You can accept it or you cannot, but it sounds like you simply aren’t old enough to remember that era of discussions.

People absolutely praised the **** out of Jerry West for the perseverance of continuing to go so hard while losing every year. I read about what was called the tragic irony of the Lakers beginning the 33 game win streak the year They finally won the title the literal night of Elgin Baylor’s midseason retirement. They lost a game he played on Halloween night and he retired the next morning and they had his retirement celebration at the next game which he watched from the crowd as they won and they didn’t lose a game for over two months and then won the championship and gave him a ring anyway.

He wasn’t clowned for it like he would be today. That wasn’t the culture.

You can deal with that information what you will. Nobody old enough to remember how those guys were talked about is going to dispute they were treated with unbelievable respect.

finals losses was not a metric the way it is now due entirely to LeBron arguments and that’s just the way it is. I don’t give a shit where you rank LeBron. Ranking 18th or number one for all I care. The truth doesn’t change based on how it reflects on LeBron’s career.

That shit was simply not a talking point and the only way to believe it was is to not be young enough to remember sports discussions before him.

LeBron was the first basketball player. Finals record was used against in any kind of major way. The Buffalo Bills as I mentioned, got it in the NFL after losing four straight. But before that? Fran Tarkenton lost three Super Bowls and like Jerry West was considered a tragic figure, not somebody to mock.

There was an entire cultural shift in the Internet era, as people generally stopped celebrating greatness, and started looking more for ways to tear it down.

There’s a subtle difference between calling somebody out For not winning and talking about a number of finals losses. Wilt Chamberlain absolutely got called out for not winning enough. But even I who would’ve been pretty encyclopedic about such matters would’ve had to give it considerable thought to even tell you how many finals he lost before it became a talking point 15 years ago.


The positive from how many you won has always been part of sports discussion. Making how many finals you lost a negative? No.

I don’t care what you think about it. You don’t have to think that one plus one is two, but that doesnt make it 38. The argument simply did not exist the way it does now before LeBron got the two and five and the Internet and meme culture allow the ignorant to substitute it for real discussion.

There was no negative mention of whoever being one of three in the finals. You just hear about the one. And the two guys with the worst finals records ever were in fact both among the most respected people in the history of the sport. The fans and the players from back then would’ve considered you an absolute moron for hating on Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for losing all those finals. I know because my dumbass used to be one of them and I didn’t even have that argument in my back pocket to use because nobody gave a **** and it wouldn’t have landed.

I just about got cussed out at my grandma’s kitchen table over it in the 80s and it never even occurred to me to use the final losses in my argument.

I probably would’ve actually been slapped in the face by my stepdad instead of being accurately called out for talking shit about people I didn’t even watch.

and I would’ve deserved it. It wouldn’t have stopped me though.

[StrongLurk]

what I’m telling you is that I’ve been having and reading these discussions for 40 years. What I am telling you is that I’ve been having them online for over 25 years. And I am telling you I’m not sure I even heard the term finals record used in a negative light until Lebron got to 2/5.

i’m telling you the simple fact that Jerry West and Elgin Baylor were unbelievably respected and highly ranked despite having the worst finals records imaginable. I’m telling you my entire childhood and beyond Jerry West was referred to as Mr. clutch for hitting big shots and losing in the finals.

I’m telling you my stepdad and his friend who was in the NBA in the 70s thought I was the biggest idiot alive talking shit about Elgin Baylor in the 80s. In retrospect, I didn’t really know what I was talking about, though. I didn’t know quite a few facts. The fact that he lost in the finals wasn’t even among the things I was talking about.

It simply was not a part of the discussion in a negative light. You can accept it or you cannot, but it sounds like you simply aren’t old enough to remember that era of discussions.

People absolutely praised the **** out of Jerry West for the perseverance of continuing to go so hard while losing every year. I read about what was called the tragic irony of the Lakers beginning the 33 game win streak the year They finally won the title the literal night of Elgin Baylor’s midseason retirement. They lost a game he played on Halloween night and he retired the next morning and they had his retirement celebration at the next game which he watched from the crowd as they won and they didn’t lose a game for over two months and then won the championship and gave him a ring anyway.

He wasn’t clowned for it like he would be today. That wasn’t the culture.

You can deal with that information what you will. Nobody old enough to remember how those guys were talked about is going to dispute they were treated with unbelievable respect.

finals losses was not a metric the way it is now due entirely to LeBron arguments and that’s just the way it is. I don’t give a shit where you rank LeBron. Ranking 18th or number one for all I care. The truth doesn’t change based on how it reflects on LeBron’s career.

That shit was simply not a talking point and the only way to believe it was is to not be young enough to remember sports discussions before him.

LeBron was the first basketball player. Finals record was used against in any kind of major way. The Buffalo Bills as I mentioned, got it in the NFL after losing four straight. But before that? Fran Tarkenton lost three Super Bowls and like Jerry West was considered a tragic figure, not somebody to mock.

There was an entire cultural shift in the Internet era, as people generally stopped celebrating greatness, and started looking more for ways to tear it down.

There’s a subtle difference between calling somebody out For not winning and talking about a number of finals losses. Wilt Chamberlain absolutely got called out for not winning enough. But even I who would’ve been pretty encyclopedic about such matters would’ve had to give it considerable thought to even tell you how many finals he lost before it became a talking point 15 years ago.


The positive from how many you won has always been part of sports discussion. Making how many finals you lost a negative? No.

I don’t care what you think about it. You don’t have to think that one plus one is two, but that doesnt make it 38. The argument simply did not exist the way it does now before LeBron got the two and five and the Internet and meme culture allow the ignorant to substitute it for real discussion.

There was no negative mention of whoever being one of three in the finals. You just hear about the one. And the two guys with the worst finals records ever were in fact both among the most respected people in the history of the sport. The fans and the players from back then would’ve considered you an absolute moron for hating on Jerry West and Elgin Baylor for losing all those finals. I know because my dumbass used to be one of them and I didn’t even have that argument in my back pocket to use because nobody gave a **** and it wouldn’t have landed.

I just about got cussed out at my grandma’s kitchen table over it in the 80s and it never even occurred to me to use the final losses in my argument.

I probably would’ve actually been slapped in the face by my stepdad instead of being accurately called out for talking shit about people I didn’t even watch.

and I would’ve deserved it. It wouldn’t have stopped me though.

Exactly, Lebron has 6 second place finishes and the horde of haters are trying to act like that is the worst thing on anyone's resume ever...Culture and discourse as a whole has seriously crumbled over the last 20 years. I still don't even know if all these tech enhancements have actually made things better for the average person. Culture is horrible and the average middle class person under 35 is far behind previous generations when it comes to purchasing power related to cost of living.

[beasted]

I can agree that more focus was previously put on the need for a player to win more titles than they did. Ex: Wilt and West were the primary examples of players who were surpassed easily by other greats such as Bird and Magic early on and the accepted rationale was greater immediate success.

There was a minor tweak in the discussion back then. The narrative was more so "squandered opportunity of teammattes/seeding" rather than the losses itself. For example, when one might have argued in the favor of Wilt/West "the only reason that Magic and Bird have won so much in a short amount of time is they play on stacked teams", the socially accepted counter argument was that "look how West/Wilt were not able to win when they played on their own stacked teams."

I understand the nuance of what you're trying to say. That argument was essentially based on the lack of success, not exactly focused on the "lost Finals" itself.

Ultimately, as I stated earlier, the tweaks in nuance to shift from focus on "squandered opportunity" to now focus more directly on the loss itself is is the fault of only LeBron and his own doing.

Team hopping from a number 1 seed contender was unheard of. Team hopping, attempting to puppeteer your own legacy through free agency hostage negotiation and media manipulation, while still eventually losing is what got LeBron the criticism he has earned based on his own manufactured design.

So, like it or not, he's lying down in his own bed.

[beasted]

And before anyone says it that LeBron just widened the gate that Shaq opened, the circumstances of Shaq's departure were slightly more justified than LeBron's.

Yes, Shaq left a 60 win team, but they were unwilling to pay him. In addition, when your facing the shadow of a 72 win dynasty and a move to the biggest media market in the US, there was more support there. Lastly, Shaq did not collude to join a contender-ready team.

[warriorfan]

Baylor was never denigrated as a player becuase of his finals record. We didn't treat great players the way we treat Lebron EVER. The thing you could say was held against Baylor was his retiring without having won a ring at all. That was a thing that "validated" your greatness and completely different from Lebron's situation. We later saw this with guys like Ewing, Barkley and Malone. Iverson. More recently Melo. That asterisk of * never won a championship aside their name. Guys that won? They were good for life and just waiting for their hall of fame call. And even with that, i never saw a single bad view of Baylor or his career. Wilt was one of the only guys i can remember having really any sort of negative press surrounding his career. And the negative wasn't a 2-4 finals record, it was the perception that he quit in a finals series. And even with this he was widely regarded as
Goat for a period of time. Some people saw Oscar Robertson as the goat with only a sidekick ring to his name. Finals record was never a thing until Lebron. Most of the shit i've seen people bitch and moan about with Lebron was never a thing before him. I feel like it has alot to do with the times, Floyd Mayweather was also hated harder than I ever saw a great boxer get hated on. Hot take media really warped the minds of sports fans too. And with that shift people's concept of what greatness actually is began to change. Post 80s i cant really recall many people talking about Bill Russell as perhaps the greatest of all time. But 30 years later never having logged another single minute, he's seen as a greater player than Wilt in an all time sense. I've always been intrigued by all time debates since I was a kid. Lebron brought about some shit I've never seen in these conversations before him.

This guy is the gayest simp of all time. God damn.

[Nowoco]

Yes, Shaq left a 60 win team, but they were unwilling to pay him.

They flat out disrespected him. Shaq would have signed if they had paid him what he was worth. Instead they lowballed him, slow rolled him and generally didnt believe in him. Orlando got what they deserved.

[sdot_thadon]

This guy is the gayest simp of all time. God damn.

Aww, how cute. Is this what happens when you're too young for the discussion but dont want to feel left out? Poe baby.

[Full Court]

It's pretty simple. No "great" ever choked as hard as Lebron did over and over again. Jimmy Butler doesn't get any flak for leading the worst finals team ever in 2020 and still taking two games from the Lakers. He played like an all time great during that series.

Here's a pro tip: NOT ALL LOSSES ARE EQUAL.

Who else in the top 20 ever had as bad of a series as Lebron did in 2011? Or against the Celtics in 2008? And I could go on and on.