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Old 11-10-2009, 10:31 PM   #16
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK2V1GP
Like last season, didn't Brees win offensive player of the year? But he was on a bad team. Maybe thats a difference. Peyton won MVP and his team was a playoff team with 12 wins. Brees won offensive poy on the top offensive team, but on a 8 win team.

IDK lol

You just broke down the difference butthead.
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:36 PM   #17
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

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Originally Posted by MK2V1GP
He had one good game against my awful Bucs' secondary. What else has he done? I'm asking b/c I don't remember hearing much from him any other time I've watched him play.

Harvin has been consistently good since Week 1.
He's been consistent since that game. But Mike Wallace >> everyone else. Great #s as a #3 receiver putting up better #s than Minnesota's #2 (Berrian). Harvin's ability as a returner helps his cause though. The guy's been electric and easily the most exciting, but if he's not head and shoulders above anyone in production. Other guys are right there with him.
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Old 11-10-2009, 10:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

Darren Sharper is the DPOY...

6 picks...3 TDs...1 was 99 yards

just 1 more pick-6 for the record...

he has more TDs than alot of star WRs do...


he has turned that Saints defense around..

Last edited by ~primetime~ : 11-10-2009 at 11:15 PM.
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:32 PM   #19
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

Don't forget Austin Collie, 32/356/4. I wouldn't give him the award, doesn't bring the return ability like Harvin, but for a 4th rounder he's exceeded every expectation.

Anyone followed all the rookie OTs that got drafted, Smith, Oher, etc etc? Any of them warrant consideration? When's the last time a non-position player won a major award anyway? Did Jake Long?
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Old 11-10-2009, 11:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

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Originally Posted by InspiredLebowski
Don't forget Austin Collie, 32/356/4. I wouldn't give him the award, doesn't bring the return ability like Harvin, but for a 4th rounder he's exceeded every expectation.

Anyone followed all the rookie OTs that got drafted, Smith, Oher, etc etc? Any of them warrant consideration? When's the last time a non-position player won a major award anyway? Did Jake Long?

Michael Oher has played really well. If he were to win ROY I wouldn't have a problem with that.
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Old 11-11-2009, 04:33 AM   #21
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

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Originally Posted by GOBB
MVP takes into consideration the impact you had on your team when it comes to wins/losses. Offensive player of the year tends to just highlight the statistical season you had where wins/losses is irrelevant. Kinda like ROY in the NBA. ROY in the NBA is determined by production and not team success. Whereas thats reserved for MVP of the league. Which is why you'll rarely find MVP winners on losing teams if not teams a few games above .500.

Last year shuld further illustrate that when Manning won the MVP and Brees won OPOY. Its not uncommon to win both awards like Tom Brady...and again if you look at the numbers Tom Brady put up without taking into team success? you would say he had one of the best seasons ever for a QB no?

So there is the difference.
I guess I just never bought into the whole... "Guy A with great stats was hugely important whereas Guy B was not". What's to say that Peyton (last year) didn't have a better team around him than Brees? And that if you took Peyton off the team, they would win 3-5 games, whereas if Brees was gone, the Saints go 0-16? It's so subjective...
IMO, any QB that puts up the numbers either of those guys has/is putting up is ridiculously valuable. You can quote records all you want, but keep in mind it's a team game, and you're rewarding a player an individual award for his team's accomplishments.
KG on the TWolves was a perfect example... you really mean to tell me that Duncan meant more to his team than KG? Garnett led his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg, bpg.... sounds like he was more valuable than Duncan. Did the great stats translate into as many wins? No, because the team around him was poor... but his value was up there with anyone's.

Edit -- To further enhance my argument, last season the Saints were a mediocre-to-good team, and Brees got consideration, but never really stood a chance of winning MVP. This year, when his playmakers are healthy, and his defense is stepping it up big time, the TEAM is having more success, and suddenly he's a contender for MVP, if not the favorite.
I would also like to cite Pau Gasol. Post-Shaq Kobe Bryant kept the Lakers relevant, but never a title contender, as the players around him just weren't that good. Suddenly he gets an All-Star, and Kobe is the MVP? I won't argue with Kobe getting MVP, even though I thought Wade deserved it most last year, but that's my argument in a nutshell. Team accomplishments are weighted too heavily when it comes to player awards (ALL player awards, except strictly defensive ones), without regard to the quality of the teammates.

Last edited by kshutts1 : 11-11-2009 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:16 AM   #22
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

Quote:
Originally Posted by kshutts1
I guess I just never bought into the whole... "Guy A with great stats was hugely important whereas Guy B was not". What's to say that Peyton (last year) didn't have a better team around him than Brees? And that if you took Peyton off the team, they would win 3-5 games, whereas if Brees was gone, the Saints go 0-16? It's so subjective...
IMO, any QB that puts up the numbers either of those guys has/is putting up is ridiculously valuable. You can quote records all you want, but keep in mind it's a team game, and you're rewarding a player an individual award for his team's accomplishments.
KG on the TWolves was a perfect example... you really mean to tell me that Duncan meant more to his team than KG? Garnett led his team in ppg, rpg, apg, spg, bpg.... sounds like he was more valuable than Duncan. Did the great stats translate into as many wins? No, because the team around him was poor... but his value was up there with anyone's.

Edit -- To further enhance my argument, last season the Saints were a mediocre-to-good team, and Brees got consideration, but never really stood a chance of winning MVP. This year, when his playmakers are healthy, and his defense is stepping it up big time, the TEAM is having more success, and suddenly he's a contender for MVP, if not the favorite.
I would also like to cite Pau Gasol. Post-Shaq Kobe Bryant kept the Lakers relevant, but never a title contender, as the players around him just weren't that good. Suddenly he gets an All-Star, and Kobe is the MVP? I won't argue with Kobe getting MVP, even though I thought Wade deserved it most last year, but that's my argument in a nutshell. Team accomplishments are weighted too heavily when it comes to player awards (ALL player awards, except strictly defensive ones), without regard to the quality of the teammates.

Manning won the MVP last year because he literally carried the Colts on his back to a 12-4 record. The running game? Weak. The Colts won ugly but it was at the hands of Manning, arm rather that did it. When you break down the Colts season and look for impact players. Who had the bigger impact in these wins? It'll point to Manning which is why he won vs Drew Brees. You can say defense, special teams and go that route with the argument. By then you are just making an argument to eliminate MVP since its a "team" game so how can 1 man be more valuable if not to thier team but in the league.

Drew Brees numbers were great but how he arrived to getting those numbers could be in question. And by examining the season, the offense the Saints in 2008 you conclude great production but he really wasnt as valuable as Manning was to his team. This season you can say whats the difference? That the Saints defense is stopping teams instead of keeping the offense on the field to rack up stats? Yeah and the fact Drew Brees has delivered in big games both at home but more importantly on the road.

There is a criteria for MVP, OPOY, DPOY. MVP can be tricky, but OPOY is pretty much cut and dry as far as how one wins it.

The team arguments you present isnt a bad one. It in fact it is what leads us to arguing who is more valuable than others in nba/nfl.

Like Wade didnt win MVP last season yet if Miami "team" were to improve the team lets say and he had a similar season he would probably win it.

Last edited by GOBB : 11-11-2009 at 09:18 AM.
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Old 11-11-2009, 10:42 AM   #23
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

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Originally Posted by GOBB
You just broke down the difference butthead.

After I read what I typed, it didn't come out like what I had in my head though, butthead.
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Old 11-11-2009, 01:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

Quote:
Originally Posted by MK2V1GP
He had one good game against my awful Bucs' secondary. What else has he done? I'm asking b/c I don't remember hearing much from him any other time I've watched him play.

Harvin has been consistently good since Week 1.
Here is what they have done week by week (catches/yards/tds):

Harvin: Maclin:
3/36/1 0/0/0
5/41/1 2/12/0
4/51/0 4/33/0
2/39/0 6/142/2
4/66/0 1/6/0
2/10/0 5/53/0
3/42/0 4/47/1
5/84/1 3/44

Harvin on the season has 28 catches for 369 yards and 3 TDs. Maclin has 25 for 337 yards and 3 TDs. They are very close in total production, and it took Maclin until about week 4 to finally get into it. Harvin definitely gets the nod because of his 860 return yards and 2 TDs. Both of these guys are going to be really really good.
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Old 11-11-2009, 02:51 PM   #25
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

I just want Harvin to get OROY. It was so sick to get to watch him play 3 years in college. As a rookie he is in second place in the league for KO returns... They are trying him on punt returns during Minnesota's bye week.
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Old 11-11-2009, 06:31 PM   #26
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Default Re: NFL Midseason Awards

Don't forget Johnny Knox now if you're going to mention Maclin, Collie, those guys, as well as Harvin.

28 Catches, 340 yards, 3 TD's

As well as his 590 KO return yards and 1 TD
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