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Old 10-11-2011, 02:28 PM   #31
Toni
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

I side with the owners on this one. They are trying to restructure the CBA so that every team in the NBA has a legitimate shot to win an NBA title, from the small to large markets. I think that is fair and makes the league much more competitive. Although, obviously it`s difficult when these players are all used to making so much money and all of a sudden David Stern says enough is enough..
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Old 10-11-2011, 03:48 PM   #32
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
I side with the owners on this one. They are trying to restructure the CBA so that every team in the NBA has a legitimate shot to win an NBA title, from the small to large markets. I think that is fair and makes the league much more competitive. Although, obviously it`s difficult when these players are all used to making so much money and all of a sudden David Stern says enough is enough..
Exactly. It's like for years and years you take advantage of a f*cked up system, and then someone just says hey... you can't have any of what you used to have you're being cut off cold turkey. I can understand the players being upset, especially the younger guys who saw the early/mid 2000s era take the NBA to the bank. However, it was like there are certain parts of the system that were running the league into the ground.

So to get more specific: (from the ESPN.COM article about it)
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/70...eks-nba-season

Quote:
sources told Bucher and Broussard that owners proposed system changes this week that included a luxury tax of $2 for every $1 that teams strayed above the tax threshold -- doubling the tax that was applied in the previous collective bargaining agreement
Mainly effects large market teams that go way over the salary cap to win a championship. Would make them have to use their resources a lot more effectively which to me would hamper the "superteam" idea in a big way.

Quote:
The owners, sources said, also want teams that stray beyond the tax line three times in a five-season span to pay $3 for every $1 over the tax limit. Sources said that the proposed tax penalties would rise to $4 for every $1 dollar over the threshold for any team that crossed into tax territory in five straight seasons.
Funny why they would say this. Pretty much like taking money from the rich and helping the poor.

Quote:
Sources said that owners also pushed for contract limits of four years for free agents re-signing with their current teams and three years for free agents joining new teams, with the union proposing five years and four years, respectively.
Agree with this. I mean it sucks for them but trimming off a year or two off of guaranteed contracts I believe would make the players more competitive in addition to costing the franchise less money.

Quote:
Sources say that the league, as ESPN.com reported last week, likewise continues to push for tax-paying teams to be denied the use of their Larry Bird and mid-level exceptions and is still pushing for the mid-level exception to be reduced from a maximum of $5.8 million annually over five years in the previous CBA to a two- or three-year maximum contract that can't exceed $3 million annually.
I think they are asking for a little too much here but I guess it also ties into them trying to take back the league from large market teams and spread the wealth.

Quote:
"It makes no sense for us to operate under the current model, where taxpayers ... have a huge advantage over other teams," NBA deputy commissioner Adam Silver said.

This is obviously the main point they are getting at. That they want all the teams in the league to have an equal shot at winnining when in the past those in the running are consistently the teams that are way over the salary cap.
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Old 10-11-2011, 06:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by bokes15
I'd say it's a little bit of both. Due to guaranteed 6 year deals, a "fair deal" is not determined by whether or not the player is really worth it to them for that number of years. It's determined by what other guys are getting and by what they bring to your franchise from a money standpoint rather than a basketball standpoint for the most part. For instance, you aren't going to give a 30-31 year old out of prime superstar a max contract thinking that he'll be just as good for you at the end of it as he is at the beginning. You have to give it to him because he won't accept a smaller deal for lesser years based on the system it would be a slap in the face to do so and they'd for sure walk, as seems to be the going trend right now.
I think that this is because of the soft cap. When a team is over the cap, it can only resign its own players, even if they are old and overpaid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni
I side with the owners on this one. They are trying to restructure the CBA so that every team in the NBA has a legitimate shot to win an NBA title, from the small to large markets. I think that is fair and makes the league much more competitive. Although, obviously it`s difficult when these players are all used to making so much money and all of a sudden David Stern says enough is enough..
This doesn't make sense to me. The competitiveness of the small makets depends on the salary cap. What they are really discussing is the percentage of the revenues that goes to the players. The rest is all smoke.

BTW, I thought that capitalists like you don't like intervention. I mean, if Memphis can't compete with LA, well, maybe they shouldn't have an NBA team. That's the capitalist logic. But it seems that capitalism is only an excuse to exploit the poor. When a NBA team or a bank needs help, they have that help. (sorry, I just wanted to write this)
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Old 10-11-2011, 08:51 PM   #34
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCardelle
I think that this is because of the soft cap. When a team is over the cap, it can only resign its own players, even if they are old and overpaid.

A team over the cap can resign it's own players, or get a midlevel player at roughly 5.8M, which as they pointed out, can amount to up to 37M over the course of 5 years. or they can trade for players that put them more over the cap. So yeah they do have some options.
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Old 10-11-2011, 10:38 PM   #35
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by FCardelle
This doesn't make sense to me. The competitiveness of the small makets depends on the salary cap. What they are really discussing is the percentage of the revenues that goes to the players. The rest is all smoke.

BTW, I thought that capitalists like you don't like intervention. I mean, if Memphis can't compete with LA, well, maybe they shouldn't have an NBA team. That's the capitalist logic. But it seems that capitalism is only an excuse to exploit the poor. When a NBA team or a bank needs help, they have that help. (sorry, I just wanted to write this)

Why did you label me as a capitalist? Clearly, from what I said previously, I take an anti-capitalism standpoint in this regard. In any league you will have small market teams that can't afford to go 40-50 million over the cap and pay an extra 40-50 million dollars in luxury taxes. And of course, you will have larger markets like LA, Dallas and Boston who can spend that money comfortably and still be profitable while winning championships.

It's really not fair for teams like Memphis, Milwaukee, New Orleans, Indiana etc.. to compete against these teams because they obviously can't afford to pay players that much and pay the extra luxury tax because of the obvious issues that come with being a small market team.

If you are going to have 30 teams in the league it has to be an equal playing field, if not, there needs to be some changes. This is precisely why David Stern locked out the first two weeks of the season and likely plenty more.
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Old 10-12-2011, 12:31 PM   #36
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

on a side note. its amazing if you look at the arguments on both sides. The owners and league is asking for a level playing field while the players want to continue to have a big part of the share without sharing with others.

now go and compare these people take sides when it comes to politicis and economics. i bet they would be on opposite spectrums. or most of them at least. when obama is arguing for an equal playing field, ppl are arguing against that.

just amazes me how ppl will change sides when they have the upper hand.
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Old 10-12-2011, 05:23 PM   #37
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Even though there are quite a few things from the players side that I don't agree with, I kind of see what mentality they have. To them it's like we are the show. We are the product, and without us there is no league. We're what the fans pay big money to see, and should be compensated accordingly. And the owners are like, we're investing in you (the product) in order to produce a good return on investment. You are a product that we are putting money into and expecting to get something out of it to make it worthwhile. So it makes a little bit of sense on each side.
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Old 10-14-2011, 10:58 AM   #38
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

This is not a "product industry" - this is entertainment.

Poor analogy from the players and owners.

History Lesson 101.

When the Charlie Chaplin, Douglas Fairbanks, Mary Pickford set al tired of Movie Moguls like MGM , Republic Pictures, and 20th Century owning their contracts and rights and prohibiting them from making (1) movies they wanted to or (2) making more money by working where they wanted to - they took the next logical step.

They formed United Artisits - a competing studio. Then they set out to work under the conditions they desired.

The real outcome of this? United Artists slightly changed the way the indutry worked - but the star owners ended up largely becoming the "man" they rose up to oppose in the first place. Changed some of the flexability and freedom of some stars - by and large did not affect the lower echelon of actors and performers.

Fast forward.

If the Players are prepared to risk their personal money to promote themselves as the "real reason people come to watch basketball" - then back it up with your wallet. Do it. Shut up and do it. Kobe Lbron et al can form their own league, negotiate their own arena leases, collect their own sponosrs.

The owners on the other hand want more profits. Claw backs the players give will never be returned to fans in form of lower ticket prices. Frankly they could use a knock down fight with a player league to re-teach them the appreciation of paying customers and fans.

This is neither capitalism nor socialism - its the entertainment business that is as wonky as it gets and operates under its own arcane architecture.
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:20 PM   #39
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jballer
This is neither capitalism nor socialism - its the entertainment business that is as wonky as it gets and operates under its own arcane architecture.
If the entertainment business is not an example of capitalism I don't know what it is.
Entertainment worked in a differente way in the communist countries. The communist party, instead of the industry, decided what people watched... well it is not that different after all.
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Old 10-16-2011, 08:09 AM   #40
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Default Re: The longer the lockout carries on...

Dennis Rodman says it best:
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7098168/bow-down

Quote:
"Most players don't give a damn about the game," he said. "They want the money and all of a sudden they want unity. I'm not taking the owners' side. I think the players should look at themselves."
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