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Old 06-11-2012, 06:58 PM   #16
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

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Originally Posted by Meticode
And somehow regardless of this he posted historic numbers as a rookie.

I agree with you some points in your post, but you just seem to hate him and aren't given credit where it's due.

I don't hate Griffin by any means, though I suppose it could come off that way, I was just trying to evaluate his game and compare it as a base for Robinson as a prospect.

Griffin did post up damn good numbers, I wasn't at all trying to deny that.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:11 PM   #17
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

Snoopy Cat obviously doesn't watch a lot of Clipper games. Griffin has a long way to go but considering the numbers he puts up the guy is hella good. He has some post moves, he has an improving mid range jump shot, he has the high motor, work ethic, and is very athletic. The guy has improved and it looks like he will continue to improve. Just like Clipperfan said if Robinson comes close to a 20/10 season that will be successful for him. 20/10 is just a very average game for Griffin even at this very early stage of his career. The skill set is slowly getting there. He's only been in the league 2 years and putting up numbers that others would dream off.
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Old 06-11-2012, 07:18 PM   #18
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

Apparently neither do you if you think Blake Griffin has an adequate set of post moves and a reliable jumper.

Once again, he is a damn good player who puts up great numbers and gives it 100% despite his lack of a refined skill set.

Once again, I am speaking of Robinson solely as a prospect, made no mention of him averaging 20/10 in his rookie year and onwards, etc.

I'm not going to talk about Griffin any more, this is a thread about Robinson.
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Old 06-11-2012, 08:47 PM   #19
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

The big problem with comparing Griffin to Robinson, is comparing Blake Griffin the NBA player with Thomas Robinson the NCAA player. If, for whatever reason, you find Griffin lacking in the comparison, something massive is missing. Griffin in the final year of college ball pretty much laps Robinson in production and efficiency (not to mention that Oklahoma team was a good bit worse than this Kansas team). Robinson has a ways to go to reach Griffin's level.

Anywho, Robinson should probably function as a solid starter in the NBA (which is sort of the M.O. of most of this draft). He's an excellent rebounder, he has what looks like a solid jump shot, and he has a pretty high motor, which will keep in the league as a productive player for a long time. But he does struggle against NBA sized bigs (as evidence by his really poor scoring numbers in the NCAA tournament) and he's fairly unrefined when it comes to scoring, even in terms of his instincts.
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Old 06-11-2012, 09:48 PM   #20
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

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Originally Posted by steve
The big problem with comparing Griffin to Robinson, is comparing Blake Griffin the NBA player with Thomas Robinson the NCAA player. If, for whatever reason, you find Griffin lacking in the comparison, something massive is missing. Griffin in the final year of college ball pretty much laps Robinson in production and efficiency (not to mention that Oklahoma team was a good bit worse than this Kansas team). Robinson has a ways to go to reach Griffin's level.

Anywho, Robinson should probably function as a solid starter in the NBA (which is sort of the M.O. of most of this draft). He's an excellent rebounder, he has what looks like a solid jump shot, and he has a pretty high motor, which will keep in the league as a productive player for a long time. But he does struggle against NBA sized bigs (as evidence by his really poor scoring numbers in the NCAA tournament) and he's fairly unrefined when it comes to scoring, even in terms of his instincts.

Oh I totally agree with the fact that a direct comparison of Griffin in the NBA and Robinson in the NCAA has notable faults to it. Thanks for bringing it up.

However, when I look at the two in generalized skillsets, both within the NCAA and NBA, the model provided for Robinson suggests to me that Robinson will do well because a lot of his style is reflected in my eyes in an earlier Griffin.

I don't think Robinson will ever put up the numbers Griffin does, but his similarity in huge motor with (in my eyes) a slightly better skill foundation (esp when compared to NCAA years of themselves) will help Robinson to do quite well at the next level. It is this slightly greater skillset that I believe makes up for slightly less production and domination that Griffin demonstrated at the collegiate level as a prospect for the NBA. You do also bring up good points on comparing them as NCAA prospects, though I personally think using "laps" is an exaggeration when comparing their efficiency and production.

From what I've seen, there is a split between whether or not Robinson has moves outside of power moves and being aggressive, (I believe this is your opinon as well). I genuinely do think Robinson has a respectable set of skill moves and a jump shot that is at this point better than what Griffin displayed, though it's still nothing to praise.

Essentially, my sentiments about Robinson comes down to this - a lot of people think Robinson can't succeed because he is a pretty athleticism-based, raw player that has his limitations (like, as you noted, has trouble against long guys). However, guys like Griffin, Jefferson, etc. who have similar limitations (albeit Big Al has some sick moves and Griffin is an elite athlete paralleled only by guys like LeBron) have had major success and puts up stats and I don't see why a guy who is very similar to (I know I keep using his name, but I feel like as prospects the general perspective of them was similar) and even better in some regards AS A PROSPECT can't have success nearly as good despite the negative parts of his portfolio.
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Old 06-12-2012, 10:04 AM   #21
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

I get where you're coming from. Both guys are cut from a similar cloth.

I think the difference as a prospect is that as athletic as Robinson has displayed himself to be, Griffin was always elite in that regard. And that was a combination of speed, explosiveness, and strength, all of which Robinson has at an NBA level, but Griffin even as a prospect was considered to be in at the elite level of NBA athletes. The other things I'd say is that he had a reputation as having better hands and just generally being better with the ball.
Now none of those things translate specifically into on court skill sets, but they add up to make him a better prospect at the time than Robinson is now by a fair margin.

On the other end of the spectrum, how bout a failure cut from a similar cloth. How different a prospect is Robinson from Tyrus Thomas when he was leaving LSU? I'd say there's an appreciable gap in strength for Robinson, and while I'd say Robinson has a better foundation for a jumper, there are some similarities in where there other ball skills are.
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Old 06-12-2012, 11:07 AM   #22
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

Hey Thorpesaurus,

I definitely do see your point of view as well. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but then again that's the thing about drafting I suppose - it's impossible for one to completely predict someone's translation to the NBA.

I do think overall Griffin was a better prospect, BUT I personally think the "fair margin" bit is a bit much. Also, what exactly did you mean by "better with the ball?". Because based on how you interpret it, in my eyes I would say Griffin was the better and more efficient scorer and slightly better rebounder whereas Robinson displays a wider range of things to bring to the table.

As far as the Tyrus Thomas comparisons go, I'm not going to lie, I thought he would produce at the NBA. At the same time, I thought his offensive skillset (compared to what I think of Robinson now) was much more raw, so I didn't think he'd have the same success as I think Robinson will have. Granted, I've watched a lot more of Robinson than of Thomas but I always thought Thomas would be around 11-14ish pt- 8/9 rebound kind of guy with a block or two.
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Old 06-12-2012, 12:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Let's talk about Thomas Robinson

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Originally Posted by Snoop_Cat
Hey Thorpesaurus,

I definitely do see your point of view as well. I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but then again that's the thing about drafting I suppose - it's impossible for one to completely predict someone's translation to the NBA.

I do think overall Griffin was a better prospect, BUT I personally think the "fair margin" bit is a bit much. Also, what exactly did you mean by "better with the ball?". Because based on how you interpret it, in my eyes I would say Griffin was the better and more efficient scorer and slightly better rebounder whereas Robinson displays a wider range of things to bring to the table.

As far as the Tyrus Thomas comparisons go, I'm not going to lie, I thought he would produce at the NBA. At the same time, I thought his offensive skillset (compared to what I think of Robinson now) was much more raw, so I didn't think he'd have the same success as I think Robinson will have. Granted, I've watched a lot more of Robinson than of Thomas but I always thought Thomas would be around 11-14ish pt- 8/9 rebound kind of guy with a block or two.


Ball skills is a term I came up with that I sort of mean to say that he's good at doing things with the ball that aren't necessarily basketball specific things. Like Griffin is a very good passer, but not in the sense that he's skilled at seeing cutters or feeling where opportunities are going to be, like a Chris Webber or something (although he is showing some signs of that now), just in that he makes solid strong passes that aren't lazy or particularly dumb.
Same with ball handling. I don't want to call a guy a good ballhandler, because it implies he can blow by people on the bounce, or make moves in the open floor. It's more that his ball handling is sound. He's not gonna bounce it off his foot. You can hit him in transition and he can make a few bounces with it on the run.
Catching the thing is also something I lump into my ball skills description. Some guys you can pretty much count on to catch whatever comes at them.

It's sort of a generic implication that the guy is good with the ball without overstating some specific skill. And honestly, guys with what I would call good ball skills seem to be underrated for some reason. There's nothing terribly flashy about being able to catch the thing. But it's unusually important. And bigs in particular for some reason seem to have this sort of basic set of skills overlooked often in favor of raw athleticism.

It's a hard thing to really evaluate, but even coming in, one of the things that set Griffin apart was how fluidly he seemed to do all the little things, like just catch the thing. And Robinson is obviously really skilled in this area too, but I've seen him look choppy catching the ball at the high post as a trailer say, and while his ability to hit a jumper from that spot may be better than Griffin's was at the time, I think Griffin's ability to simply catch it may be a little understated.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I was not a total Griffin guy to start with. I thought he was going to measure a little shorter than he did, and I for one had said up until that measurement that I would've taken Greg Monroe first in that draft. I changed my mind after all Griffin's measurables were in, but I was still somewhat concerned about banking on a guy coming in to dominate people essentially from a physical standpoint more often than not.

And there are still things about Blake that bother me. He should be a much more intimidating defensive presence than he is for one.
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