Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Are we talking prime, or past his prime? The guy was one of the league's first genuinely unstoppable scorers... A guy who just knows how to put the ball in the hoop regardless of the defensive player in front of him. Elgin is a guy who scored over 70 points w/o 3 point shots and averaged over 30 a game for several seasons. An unathletic, uncreative shooter who's undersized for his position - Kevin Love - is good for 26/13/2 a game but Baylor? he's good for no more than 20/8/3. 3 assists? Got it. Elgin Baylor is a nameless roleplayer in today's league "and that's pretty dam good". You do make many relevant posts on here and I respect them, but other times I just don't see eye to eye.
talking in his prime.
ah the kevin love argument. kevin love became answer to all era debates. kevin love who i think is somewhat overrated is still one of a kind. he is basically only white PF who has put up that kinda number in my life time even though he shoots p!ss poor % for a PF and none of his effort really translates to W. and maybe just maybe kevin love has a special ability to steal all the rebounds by his teammates and he actually does have a borderline elite offense? i always thought love was deceptively athletic anyway. him losing all that baby fat has made him better, and whether people like him or not, he has shown tremendous improvements in his game every year. but let's not act like kevin love is answer to all era debates. kevin love is an anomaly.
anyway 20/8/3 because
1. i just don't think baylor is barkley like rebounder. 8 reb for guy his size is still elite. bron averaged over 8reb a season once in his career. and bron is significantly bigger and more athletic. so i'm actually giving baylor a major prop as an elite rebounder. i just don't see SF grabbing anything more than 8 a game today. the game of basketball has evolved and players are just too spread out. having a 3pt line was a major change too. instead baylor being near the basket, he would have to constantly guard between 15ft all the way to 3pt line. unless he plays PF permanently and always be near around the rim like charles, i just don't see him avg double digit rebound.
2. 20pts - his fg% was very low even when he was avging 38. he was only 42-43fg% kinda player in 60's. do i think he will shoot higher % in today's nba? no. yes he can avg 25pt even 30pt a game. but at what cost? his % would go down even lower which is a very dangerous territory for SF. we aren't talking about 6ft AI here who had a green light to shoot as much shots as he wanted because fans wanted him to. i just don't think teams won't allow SF to shoot 40% ish fg%. I would have to say baylor would have to be kobe like volume shooter to avg 25-27pt a game. that's 21-23 attempts a night. if he does that i see him being a 25/8/3 39% FG kinda guy. and if his effort doesn't translate into wins then there will be a significant changes in the philosophy of that team and coaching. so i see him shooting less, but keep his fg% up.
3. 3 dimes - this i didn't really put too much thoughts into. when oscar was avg triple double, baylor was avging less than 5reb per game and his career number is 4.3. his best rebounding season was 5.4 and that happened after his prime. so 3 for the career sounds about right.
yeah, yeah, if he grew up in mid to late 80's, he would learn today's game with today's shoes and etc, etc. but i'm just going by what i've seen & read with my eyes. i'm not gonna assume anything. who knows if he eats little too much mickey Ds and taco bells to be out of shape? old schoolers had their advantages too. they most likely went through bootcamp like coaching. they were disciplined. they respected the game. they were team first. they never had to worry about twitter crap. they don't have 24/7 media scrutiny. they were hungry. they didn't make millions, so they stayed hungry. those are a major advantages no one seemed to talk about. i see too many players falling off the cliff after a big pay day. i see players shrink in the big stage because the stage is too big. too many cameras. too many articles written about them. stephen A. and skip talking about them constantly. 60's players maybe physically tired from a bad shoes, and bus trips, but today's stars are mentally burnt out more so than ever before. in a way those mental advantages 60's players had are significant.
Last edited by Linspired : 07-29-2012 at 10:48 PM.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by magnax1
Incorrect. The average heights of a couple years in the NBA (according to bball reference) are
1965-6'6 208 pounds
1985-6'7 207 pounds
present- 6'7 218 pounds
Considering that the weights really didn't change at all until the 90's I'd guess that the 60's heights were smaller by a very small decimal, but it's difficult to know since they don't list decimals. Either way, the difference in size was minimal until the 90's.
You also have to take into account that players today get "rounded up" to a much greater degree than player's of the 60s. Taking that into account, it would appear that at least height wise, they're practically the same.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
I know you don't agree with this sentiment OP(if I remember your discussions with Psileas), but I've always seen a lot of similarities betwen Elgin's and Lebron's games.
When I watch clips of Elgin I see a smaller version of Lebron with basically the same scoring arsenal(albeit with less athleticism backing it up), slightly less court vision/passing skill, and superior rebounding akin to someone like Charles Barkely. The way they drive to the basket and finish is very similar. Neither were as graceful of finishers as Jordan, but both are just about as effective with their superior inside strength. Both of them have a not so graceful looking jump shot that's oddly effective. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I do see a lot of similarities.
I could imagine Elgin being something like a 23-27/12-14/3-5 type of player in today's league.
but honestly these are so far and away from being accurate. players weight change significantly before, mid, and after the season. 82 game is grueling by itself, and you go to off season training. think this way. GSP drains his weight to 170lb the day before the fight night. on fight night he fights at 190-192lb!
i still don't have a clue if melo played at over 240lb last year. is KG really 253? did bron play at 260lb in 2010 and dropped to 255lb? many did say bron looks slimmer. did wade really play at 232lb? or maybe around 225lb? how much did durant gain? 10lb? did kobe really lose 16lb? he does look skinnier. and what about giants like yao or shaq? their weight can easily swing 15lb without looking any different.
bottom line, we will never know.
so, i wouldn't really use them as a 100% legit source.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
I know you don't agree with this sentiment OP(if I remember your discussions with Psileas), but I've always seen a lot of similarities betwen Elgin's and Lebron's games.
When I watch clips of Elgin I see a smaller version of Lebron with basically the same scoring arsenal(albeit with less athleticism backing it up), slightly less court vision/passing skill, and superior rebounding akin to someone like Charles Barkely. The way they drive to the basket and finish is very similar. Neither were as graceful of finishers as Jordan, but both are just about as effective with their superior inside strength. Both of them have a not so graceful looking jump shot that's oddly effective. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I do see a lot of similarities.
I could imagine Elgin being something like a 23-27/12-14/3-5 type of player in today's league.
SFs cannot grab 12-14 reb in today's game. if baylor wants to grab that many boards than he would really have to be the next charles. he would have to be a full time PF for sure. or he would have to be a 100% rebounding and on rebounding & defense specialist like rodman. and that means he will not be able to score much.
but that's not his game. baylor is a scorer.
and sorry, baylor ain't charles when it comes to grabbing a rebound. baylor would have to play 2 & 3 in today's league. 8reb sounds about right. that's still elite for a guy his size.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DatAsh
I know you don't agree with this sentiment OP(if I remember your discussions with Psileas), but I've always seen a lot of similarities betwen Elgin's and Lebron's games.
When I watch clips of Elgin I see a smaller version of Lebron with basically the same scoring arsenal(albeit with less athleticism backing it up), slightly less court vision/passing skill, and superior rebounding akin to someone like Charles Barkely. The way they drive to the basket and finish is very similar. Neither were as graceful of finishers as Jordan, but both are just about as effective with their superior inside strength. Both of them have a not so graceful looking jump shot that's oddly effective. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I do see a lot of similarities.
I could imagine Elgin being something like a 23-27/12-14/3-5 type of player in today's league.
I see similarities in Elgin's game and Lebron's - I guess where I don't see similarity is their soft touch finishing around the hoop, I feel like Lebron just has so much mass he just glides too the hoop w/o needing to do anything. Elgin has hands and body control that reminds me more of MJ in the sense that he can flick the ball around from all angles while he's absorbing contact and still make circus shots or back-to-the-basket layups - which is a-typical of Lebron. The driving approach too the hoop, the rebounding, and the passing game does resemble Lebron to me now, it just didn't strike me at first because first I was noticing the differences but now that I figured them out it's easier for me to see the similarities.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linspired
SFs cannot grab 12-14 reb in today's game. if baylor wants to grab that many boards than he would really have to be the next charles. he would have to be a full time PF for sure. or he would have to be a 100% rebounding and on rebounding & defense specialist like rodman. and that means he will not be able to score much.
but that's not his game. baylor is a scorer.
and sorry, baylor ain't charles when it comes to grabbing a rebound. baylor would have to play 2 & 3 in today's league. 8reb sounds about right. that's still elite for a guy his size.
Uniquely talented players that coaches/owners feel are impactful and good enough to win with do mold teams around them to allow them to play basketball how they want to play. Elgin would not be a roleplayer today limited by the bench unless a really terrible organization that lacks ability to exploit talent got hold of him. With the Lakers in the early to mid 60's, Elgin had a coach and talent around him that let him take a lot of shots despite his fg% being worse than Jerry West's, and grab a lot of rebounds despite having 2 decent roleplaying centers and an all-star power forward, etc because they trusted his instincts and ability to just play the game of basketball. If Elgin had a green light like in the early 60's with a system that embraced him and didn't hold him back he'd be able to score like Iverson, and rebound at at least 10rpg. Kobe isn't an efficient scorer and neither was Iverson, yet the NBA teams they played for greenlit them and tried to build teams around them. I don't see why it should be any different with Baylor.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Is there a few full games of Baylor? We can't judge anything from highlight videos. Ricky Davis would start to look pretty good if we just judge from highlights.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamgine
Is there a few full games of Baylor? We can't judge anything from highlight videos. Ricky Davis would start to look pretty good if we just judge from highlights.
yes but I don't want too upload them to youtube or my channel will be removed - all videos of his full games uploaded before have been taken down and the youtube channel's shut down. Is there a way I can cut the game footage up too only his plays like I did with Wilt here that would be "good enough"?
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
Uniquely talented players that coaches/owners feel are impactful and good enough to win with do mold teams around them to allow them to play basketball how they want to play. Elgin would not be a roleplayer today limited by the bench unless a really terrible organization that lacks ability to exploit talent got hold of him. With the Lakers in the early to mid 60's, Elgin had a coach and talent around him that let him take a lot of shots despite his fg% being worse than Jerry West's, and grab a lot of rebounds despite having 2 decent roleplaying centers and an all-star power forward, etc because they trusted his instincts and ability to just play the game of basketball. If Elgin had a green light like in the early 60's with a system that embraced him and didn't hold him back he'd be able to score like Iverson, and rebound at at least 10rpg. Kobe isn't an efficient scorer and neither was Iverson, yet the NBA teams they played for greenlit them and tried to build teams around them. I don't see why it should be any different with Baylor.
will baylor be marketable like AI or kobe? i doubt it. his game isn't flashy enough. and if a superstar who isn't as marketable like those ballhogs then i just don't see a greenlit from upstairs to jack up shots to avg 30 a night. that's just a bad management.
he will be a top 3 rebounder in his own position, but not in entire nba.
Last edited by Linspired : 07-29-2012 at 11:37 PM.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linspired
will baylor be marketable like AI or kobe? i doubt it. his game isn't flashy enough. and if a superstar who isn't as marketable like those ballhogs then i just don't see a greenlit from upstairs to jack up shots to avg 30 a night. that's just a bad management.
he will be a top 3 rebounder in his own position, but not in entire nba.
If I was a GM, his game would be more than flashy enough for me to market him, his circus shots and dunks on big men are exactly what a modern fan like myself enjoys - this has boiled down to opinion. If you were his GM you'd make sure Baylor didn't get minutes and touches. Obviously you see a lot less in him than I do, so we can just agree to disagree here.
Last edited by CavaliersFTW : 07-29-2012 at 11:50 PM.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CavaliersFTW
yes but I don't want too upload them to youtube or my channel will be removed - all videos of his full games uploaded before have been taken down and the youtube channel's shut down. Is there a way I can cut the game footage up too only his plays like I did with Wilt here that would be "good enough"?
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
I don't really see the Lebron explosion in Baylor's game. While he can obviously jump he doesn't play the game above the rim. He's very much like '01 Stackhouse - a great athlete without the top of the line explosion and his game looks very similar. Obviously he rebounded like Barkley but I do think that's about 8 per game these days. But I have him as a thicker version of that Stackhouse, which is a slightly better scoring version of recent Melo.
Lebron doesn't get enough respect for having a great sense of knowing when to shoot and when to pass. I think he and Magic are just in a league of their own when it comes down to that. Then Oscar who is consistently ranked above Baylor. Oscar would have to be in everybodies top ten by necessity if you think Baylor is Lebron.
Re: [VIDEO/Discussion] Elgin Baylor, would he DOMINATE SFs today with Durant/Melo/Lebron?
