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Old 10-05-2012, 09:04 AM   #16
lakerfreak
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by DKLaker
Lol.....I'm really overly defensive over Magic....lol.
I disagree that his NBA years weren't enough......when are 5 championships not enough? Then there are the All-Star games, the Olympics, the unforgettable Mid Summer Nights Magic games.......he had a full amazingly accomplished career that I am extremely happy I was there for.....not to mention conversations with him. Sure it would've been great if he hadn't contracted the virus and had won more titles.....but that's just greed.

Walton on the other hand never really had that continued run and fell way short of his potential. I also lost a ton of respect for him when he completely dogged it with the Clippers, his whole routine there was embarrassing......still a phenomenal player.

Agreed. I just think with all thats said and done, Kobe right now is the best laker player ever. Its not saying Magic was "bad" in any way. Not even worse...those words can't be used in this discussion. But whatever Magic is, I think Kobe is better.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:55 PM   #17
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Let's not forget guy's this dude Kobe "Bean" Bryant (34) is a man on a mission, not only does Kobe want to surpass the great MJ with 7 rings (Horry excluded) but he's got his sights on surpassing another all-time great as well Laker legend and NBA's all time scoring leader Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Until then Kobe still prowling currently 5th on the all-time scoring list & steadily climbing the charts and barring any major set backs or injuries I say Kobe (2 to 1) still be balling till he hits the BIG 40 or #1 scorer which ever comes first? Note: Kobe pound for pound toughest n.iggaaa inda league and a gym rat too then he will hang up his sneakers when it's all said & done (Mission Accomplished)!!!
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:30 PM   #18
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by lakerfreak
Agreed. I just think with all thats said and done, Kobe right now is the best laker player ever. Its not saying Magic was "bad" in any way. Not even worse...those words can't be used in this discussion. But whatever Magic is, I think Kobe is better.

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Old 10-07-2012, 05:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Old 10-07-2012, 05:08 AM   #20
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by lakersNUMBA1
and #7 and #8 .. would he be considered "better" than MJ??

At ring counting (strictly talking superstar players here, not bringing up the Horry, Fisher, Kerr, etc... role player talk) /winner ? Sure.

At basketball playing ? No.

Last edited by Legends66NBA7 : 10-07-2012 at 05:12 AM.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:24 AM   #21
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by lakersNUMBA1
and #7 and #8 .. would he be considered "better" than MJ?? Thoughts?

I would prefer it if you removed the IF from your title.... change it to WHEN
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:36 AM   #22
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by lakerfreak
Agreed. I just think with all thats said and done, Kobe right now is the best laker player ever. Its not saying Magic was "bad" in any way. Not even worse...those words can't be used in this discussion. But whatever Magic is, I think Kobe is better.

OMG!!! that seems like you're dissing Magic and Kareem and Mr. Logo

1. There might not be a Kobe if it wasn't for Magic (and Bird) saving the
league.

2. And IMO Magic is in the GOAT conversation... Kobe isn't there yet....

Russel had the best career of all time..... (11 rings in 13 years)
Wilt had the best season of all time..... (50ppg and 24rpg)
MJ was the most spectacular athlete of all time.... (hard to figure out how to say that)
Magic has the highest winning percentage of all time......(and he had a lot to do with that)

Kobe isn't done yet, but Magic is still the most exciting player I've ever seen.
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Old 10-11-2012, 11:45 AM   #23
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by lakerfreak
Agreed. I just think with all thats said and done, Kobe right now is the best laker player ever. Its not saying Magic was "bad" in any way. Not even worse...those words can't be used in this discussion. But whatever Magic is, I think Kobe is better.

Magic was a leader from day 1. He drove that team every year. Kobe started much slower.

Remember, Magic got the finals MVP as a rookie!!!

Kobe does have the advantage of a longer career, but I think most people
respect Magic's contributions a bit more...

And I am not dissing Kobe in any way. They are completely different types
of players... But Kobe's leadership didn't blossom until PJax came back. Magic
had that from day 1.
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Old 10-11-2012, 03:28 PM   #24
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by magicmanfan
Magic was a leader from day 1. He drove that team every year. Kobe started much slower.

Remember, Magic got the finals MVP as a rookie!!!

Kobe does have the advantage of a longer career, but I think most people
respect Magic's contributions a bit more...

And I am not dissing Kobe in any way. They are completely different types
of players... But Kobe's leadership didn't blossom until PJax came back. Magic
had that from day 1.

Not a fair statement, Magic played 2 years in college and won the NCAA championship......Kobe came in straight out of High School.

Last edited by DKLaker : 10-11-2012 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 10-12-2012, 12:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

With all due respect magicmanfan,

You're making claims that compare different generations of basketball. The game has evolved to the degree that these old guys you have mentioned literally might have to re-learn so to speak.

Mr. Logo came from a time where dribbling skills were non-existent, there were no zone defenses, which are more difficult than a physical hand checking man to man by the way. You put Kobe in that time frame, and its a walk in the park for him every night.

Magic and Kareem were great, with Magic taking the cake on careers.

Lets talk about Magic and Kobe. Magic was the most unselfish and it made it better for him that all the surrounding role players were extremely talented and athletic. It was the true definition of team basketball and no team will ever be the same.

Lets talk about Kobe. He made himself such an unguardable player. If you take away one side, he'll simply take advantage of whatever is open. Additionally, his attitude as a leader has made his teammates work on their weaknesses, and nearly perfect them. He may not be a pass first guard that inflates the stats of his players, rather they learn to adapt to him, and they sacrifice for the greater good of the team.

So many questions regarding Kobe during his career. Let's examine them:

1) With the rape case of Colorado, will Kobe Bryant ever be the same again?

Answer: after the departure of Shaq from this team, Kobe came in setting so many individual records. When Phil returned, Kobe averaged an outstanding 35.4 points for the game, and was even in MVP consideration when his team was mediocre. Not to mention his 62 points in three quarters against the mavericks, and his famous and unforgettable 81 point game against toronto, when they nearly creamed the lakers that game.

2) Can Kobe win without Shaq?

Answer: He's reached the finals 3 times, winning in two of them as the number one guy. Has the potential, to win a 3rd championship this season. If they play their cards right, Kobe might even finish with 7 championships.

This shows that not only Kobe could win a championship without Shaq, but Shaq couldn't win a championship without Kobe, or some elite level guard. Shaq is in discussion for being one of the GOAT. If these facts do prove that Kobe was better than Shaq, which responds to your claim that Kobe "is not there yet". He is there, and he still has some games left in him to prove that.

I have never seen a player like Kobe Bryant, who generates so many "off-court" discussions, come back with such a strong fire and bring greatness to a team that expects nothing less. The fact that he meets expectations, and surpasses them by a mile, shows that Kobe is in fact the greatest laker of all time, and he's not done.
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:33 PM   #26
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Right now, 2012, Magic is the greatest Laker of all time. You could even make the case greatest basketball player of all time. Kobe Bean is not on his level. Also, our Kobe Lakers never had to battle a team in the finals as stacked as some of those Celtics, Sixers and Pistons teams... And Magic was the captain of the greatest Lakers team ever assembled. And Magic holds the record for playoff triple doubles over any player in history by a wide margin. Creating passing lanes, deadly array of passing skills, speed, quickness, mental control, athleticism on the fastbreak, competitive fire, clutch plays, teamwork, post moves, help defense, ability to play all 5 positions effectively. Perhaps the greatest court vision out of any player Ive ever seen. There is a reason they called that cat Magic...
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:10 AM   #27
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

also, take away the early tragic retirement and our Lakers compete for a title for at least another 3 or 4 years. Maybe Magic retires with 6 or 7 rings...
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:46 PM   #28
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

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Originally Posted by LA Lakers
Right now, 2012, Magic is the greatest Laker of all time. You could even make the case greatest basketball player of all time. Kobe Bean is not on his level. Also, our Kobe Lakers never had to battle a team in the finals as stacked as some of those Celtics, Sixers and Pistons teams... And Magic was the captain of the greatest Lakers team ever assembled. And Magic holds the record for playoff triple doubles over any player in history by a wide margin. Creating passing lanes, deadly array of passing skills, speed, quickness, mental control, athleticism on the fastbreak, competitive fire, clutch plays, teamwork, post moves, help defense, ability to play all 5 positions effectively. Perhaps the greatest court vision out of any player Ive ever seen. There is a reason they called that cat Magic...

Magic AND Jerry West say that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time....nuff said.

Notice if you will that all the competitors that you mentioned were in the East, The biggest disappointment I have with Magic's Lakers is that they really blew some easy playoff series (Twice to Houston) and should have made it to the finals more than they did.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:46 AM   #29
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by lakerfreak
You're making claims that compare different generations of basketball. The game has evolved to the degree that these old guys you have mentioned literally might have to re-learn so to speak.

Mr. Logo came from a time where dribbling skills were non-existent, there were no zone defenses, which are more difficult than a physical hand checking man to man by the way. You put Kobe in that time frame, and its a walk in the park for him every night.

It was also an era where fouls were harder to come by, where people driving into the lane got bodychecked and suffered the occasional broken bone without getting the whistle. It's notable that Kobe really struggled with his shooting and turnovers in the year just prior to the rule banning handchecks on the perimeter--a rule, btw, that was a complete boon to explosive perimeter scorers across the league. You think Logo wouldn't appreciate having people back off an inch or two because they couldn't grab and push him while he was driving past them? With his jumper?

Look, Kobe would be great in any era, but it's fallacious to just assume he'd be that much better in the '70s after you just implied that you can't compare different eras.

Quote:
Magic and Kareem were great, with Magic taking the cake on careers.

Um. Kareem has a strong case for not just having the better career, but being the greatest player of all time.

Quote:
Lets talk about Magic and Kobe. Magic was the most unselfish and it made it better for him that all the surrounding role players were extremely talented and athletic. It was the true definition of team basketball and no team will ever be the same.

Lets talk about Kobe. He made himself such an unguardable player. If you take away one side, he'll simply take advantage of whatever is open. Additionally, his attitude as a leader has made his teammates work on their weaknesses, and nearly perfect them. He may not be a pass first guard that inflates the stats of his players, rather they learn to adapt to him, and they sacrifice for the greater good of the team.

Kobe is unguardable in the sense that he has a ridiculously high skillset and shoots the ball a ton. So, either way, he's gonna get his, but it may not be at high efficiency. His career shooting percentage is barely above the league average. He shot 45% during his 35 ppg season, which is incredible given the difficulty of his shots and the burden he took on every night, but let's not make believe that he was doing whatever he wanted out there. Even though scoring efficiency was higher in the '80's Magic (and Jordan, if you wanna throw him into the discussion) still shot the ball at a level far higher than that of their peers.


Quote:
Answer: after the departure of Shaq from this team, Kobe came in setting so many individual records. When Phil returned, Kobe averaged an outstanding 35.4 points for the game, and was even in MVP consideration when his team was mediocre. Not to mention his 62 points in three quarters against the mavericks, and his famous and unforgettable 81 point game against toronto, when they nearly creamed the lakers that game.

When Kobe was at his apex, he was about as good as anyone who ever lived. But night in, night out? There are a handful of players I'd take over him for continued, consistent excellence, including Magic and Kareem.

Quote:
2) Can Kobe win without Shaq?

Answer: He's reached the finals 3 times, winning in two of them as the number one guy. Has the potential, to win a 3rd championship this season. If they play their cards right, Kobe might even finish with 7 championships.

This shows that not only Kobe could win a championship without Shaq, but Shaq couldn't win a championship without Kobe, or some elite level guard. Shaq is in discussion for being one of the GOAT. If these facts do prove that Kobe was better than Shaq, which responds to your claim that Kobe "is not there yet". He is there, and he still has some games left in him to prove that
.

Shaq couldn't win without an elite guard, sure, but Kobe couldn't win without an elite center. Pau gets a lot of grief on this site for being soft, but he and Odom (and Drew, to a far lesser extent) made up the best frontcourt in the entire league for a few years.

Quote:
I have never seen a player like Kobe Bryant, who generates so many "off-court" discussions, come back with such a strong fire and bring greatness to a team that expects nothing less. The fact that he meets expectations, and surpasses them by a mile, shows that Kobe is in fact the greatest laker of all time, and he's not done.

Magic generated a MFT of discussion earlier in his career. Google "Tragic Johnson" and "Paul Westhead Lakers," and you'll see that it wasn't all ice cream and candy during the '80's. He overcame his fair share of adversity as well.

I think everyone is entitled to believe what they want to believe about Kobe, but I don't think enough of us are giving Magic a fair shot. This is just my opinion, but there's a holy trinity of perimeter players (Jordan, Bird, Magic), and a holy trinity of centers (Wilt, Russell, Kareem). To break into either of those groups (again, in my personal opinion), you have to be something really special across the board--passing, rebounding, shooting, winning, defense, efficiency. Kobe's great, but to me, he didn't do enough to break into that group.

Last edited by Frank Foley : 10-15-2012 at 03:50 AM.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:57 AM   #30
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Default Re: IF Kobe gets Ring #6

Quote:
Originally Posted by DKLaker
Magic AND Jerry West say that Kobe is the greatest Laker of all time....nuff said.

Notice if you will that all the competitors that you mentioned were in the East, The biggest disappointment I have with Magic's Lakers is that they really blew some easy playoff series (Twice to Houston) and should have made it to the finals more than they did.

Jerry is one of the most self-critical people who ever lived, and he loves Kobe like a son. You think he'd ever say something to prop himself up at Kobe's expense?

Magic made the finals nine times in 11 years, IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong); I don't think the argument that he didn't make the finals enough holds water. If you really wanna go there, Kobe's "only" made the finals seven times, and there were a couple of years when he arguably got eliminated too early.
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