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Old 06-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #331
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Well he was considered the resident member of the Obama internet cult and damage control team.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:23 PM   #332
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

"no more illegal wiretapping of american citizens" - Barack Obama in 2007
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:49 PM   #333
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

what i ask of the president is that he's highly competent, talented, and open to change. obama was not amongst my first couple of choices, but he's generally met the requirements IMO.

the world is changing very rapidly and this NSA thing was fairly predictable IMO. nevertheless our info-gathering approach, as objectionable as it is to so many, is almost certainly a far more balanced and democratic approach than other super-countries such as china or russia take in the matter. there are little or no rights issues in those cases. if they rear up in any way, they're typically crushed. orders come down from the top and they are followed without resistance, although i'm sure the efficiency varies.

anyway, what is the point of impeaching obama with the eventual hope of removing him? in his place you likely get another person who has to follow the exact same laws of reality that he does, but who you've now forced in to doing it more circuitously, deceitfully, forcefully, or whatever. and that's assuming it's someone who's even competent at the job!

i think it's possible to get drunk on citizens rights over time and forget that reality and nature still operate as they always do. the sacred concept of the USA is all very well and good on paper and by tradition, but it's already been falling apart in many ways even before this NSA thing came down. we were already precariously keeping afloat in many ways, such as in terms of cyber-security defenses. not that this is the same issue, but there's overlap in my mind.

haha, overlap lubricated by boredom, irritation, and a big glass of green tea spiked with some tequila.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:33 PM   #334
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
the world is changing very rapidly and this NSA thing was fairly predictable IMO. nevertheless our info-gathering approach, as objectionable as it is to so many, is almost certainly a far more balanced and democratic approach than other super-countries such as china or russia take in the matter. there are little or no rights issues in those cases. if they rear up in any way, they're typically crushed. orders come down from the top and they are followed without resistance, although i'm sure the efficiency varies.

I dont buy this line of logic at all. There is nothing about the modern world that requires us to throw away our rights. You spend a lot of time talking about the the "reality" we live in, so lets go over the truth about "reality" for a minute.

For Americans, the "reality" is that the chance of dying in a terror attack is less than dying due to being hit by lightning, or getting crushed by a vending machine. The "reality" is that terrorism is not a good enough reason to throw away our rights.

Russia and China may not have the best approach to human rights, but that certainly doesnt mean we should all just sit back and quietly accept the US govt trampling all over the rights of Americans. Are you really implying that americans should sit there quietly until things get worse than they are in China?
Quote:
anyway, what is the point of impeaching obama with the eventual hope of removing him? in his place you likely get another person who has to follow the exact same laws of reality that he does, but who you've now forced in to doing it more circuitously, deceitfully, forcefully, or whatever. and that's assuming it's someone who's even competent at the job!

Completely disagree that what Obama is doing is "following the laws of reality"
Quote:
i think it's possible to get drunk on citizens rights over time and forget that reality and nature still operate as they always do. the sacred concept of the USA is all very well and good on paper and by tradition, but it's already been falling apart in many ways even before this NSA thing came down. we were already precariously keeping afloat in many ways, such as in terms of cyber-security defenses. not that this is the same issue, but there's overlap in my mind.

Strongly disagree that "Its possible to get drunk on citizens rights"... so everyone should forget that the 4th amendment exists?

One of the main reasons the "sacred concept of the USA is falling apart" is because of people with your exact attitude. People who dont really care that the USA is trampling all over the human rights of practically every person on this planet (and the constitutional rights of practically every american)

edits: trying to clean up my jumbled nonsense

Last edited by Nanners : 06-25-2013 at 09:24 PM.
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Old 06-25-2013, 11:40 PM   #335
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

because of people with my attitude? really?

well alrighty then. now we know!
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:05 PM   #336
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

NSA spying program is justified as protecting america from terrorists, and many people (KevinNYC, gigantes apparently...) accept this justification without much thought.

The reality of these programs is that they have absolutely nothing to do with "terrorism". The reality is that intelligence infrastructure like PRISM and Fusion centers has been built with the purpose of monitoring and controlling political dissident groups like occupy, right-wing millitias, and environmental activists.

It is important to note that these tools are not to protect the "government" from activists. These tools have actually been put in place to protect the private interests that control of the government - corporations like Bank of America and Monsanto that are increasingly afraid of massive citizen backlash.


Dissent or Terror: How Arizona's Counter Terrorism Apparatus, in Partnership with Corporate Interests, Turned on Occupy Phoenix - http://www.prwatch.org/node/12112

Fusion Center Obsession With OWS: Monitoring Jesse Jackson, NDAA Protestors and Anything Else Deemed To Be a Threat - http://www.prwatch.org/node/12123

Operation Tripwire -- the FBI, the Private Sector, and the Monitoring of Occupy Wall Street - http://www.prwatch.org/node/11924

Last edited by Nanners : 06-26-2013 at 02:29 PM.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:34 PM   #337
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Surprised that no one is talking about DOMA getting shot down in the Supreme Court.
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Old 06-26-2013, 02:51 PM   #338
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

I think it is funny that the peoples champion of the democratic party aka Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law in the first place.
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:34 PM   #339
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
I think it is funny that the peoples champion of the democratic party aka Bill Clinton signed DOMA into law in the first place.

How did that go down exactly? Was it a bone he threw to the right in order to get them on his side for something else? Were there enough votes in congress to override a veto?
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Old 06-26-2013, 03:38 PM   #340
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by rufuspaul
How did that go down exactly? Was it a bone he threw to the right in order to get them on his side for something else? Were there enough votes in congress to override a veto?

IIRC, there were enough votes to override a veto. Also Clinton had just received a political black eye trying to get rid of dont ask dont tell, so that probably factored in to his decision. Basically Clinton was just protecting his own ass when he signed it, still funny though.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:30 PM   #341
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

@nanners,
yea, my POV can be taken as absurdly passive on the face of it. i am often quite naive about that kind of thing, henc3 good for me to get the feedback; ty!

it sure does sound like you need a strawman, which would strongly suggest why some might wanna take a break right now. but if you manage to personally drive away all those with a dissenting take......... well hmm, youíre a scientist, no? iím imagining that being both valid and invalid as a methodology for useful results in political arguments. hmm.....

i think i will go play ping pong for awhile and see if anything interesting happens. later.
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Old 06-26-2013, 05:48 PM   #342
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by gigantes
@nanners,
yea, my POV can be taken as absurdly passive on the face of it. i am often quite naive about that kind of thing, henc3 good for me to get the feedback; ty!

it sure does sound like you need a strawman, which would strongly suggest why some might wanna take a break right now. but if you manage to personally drive away all those with a dissenting take......... well hmm, you’re a scientist, no? i’m imagining that being both valid and invalid as a methodology for useful results in political arguments. hmm.....

i think i will go play ping pong for awhile and see if anything interesting happens. later.

I did use your post as a strawman in some ways, my apologies for being a d1ck like that. I know you are an intelligent and compassionate person and I should have been more careful about misrepresenting your views while trying to illustrate my point. I guess my post was not really a rebuttal to your points as much as it was a response to the mainstream media agenda on NSA spying (an agenda that has been parroted often in earlier pages of this thread.)

Anyway its not my intention to drive people away. On the other hand, I call things as I see them, and if the "dissenters" are unable to put together a coherent counter argument... well lets just say I will never feel bad about shutting up people who dont know what they are talking about.

Last edited by Nanners : 06-26-2013 at 05:56 PM.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:33 AM   #343
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanners
I did use your post as a strawman in some ways, my apologies for being a d1ck like that. I know you are an intelligent and compassionate person and I should have been more careful about misrepresenting your views while trying to illustrate my point. I guess my post was not really a rebuttal to your points as much as it was a response to the mainstream media agenda on NSA spying (an agenda that has been parroted often in earlier pages of this thread.)

Anyway its not my intention to drive people away. On the other hand, I call things as I see them, and if the "dissenters" are unable to put together a coherent counter argument... well lets just say I will never feel bad about shutting up people who dont know what they are talking about.
thx... much appreciated, sir! you are also someone here on ISH who i have a high regard for across the board, so was a bit dismayed to perceive myself as being typecast in a certain way just now.

the major problem for me is that i tend to look at and examine civilisation in a very different set of ways than most, and it tends to be endlessly frustrating and labyrinthine trying to get the breadth of my opinion across on a variety of matters. for starters, i don't accept the 'healthy functionality' of the way we millions live today as being anything resembling a sustaining reality, especially one that our bodies and minds were evolutionarily designed upon.

you might say that on one hand i admire advancers of thought like locke, descartes and the heroic democratic shot fired around the world by our kickass (gifted, brave) founding fathers, but as a student of the world and nature i tend to observe that such tremendous ideas are bound to be increasingly at odds with reality... both in theory and in practice.

for example, i would like to think that i am well-reasoned enough to separate my emotions from a particular issue that greatly galls me, but if you want a particular issue that arouses in me feelings of deep mistrust in our whole system... in our our laws, common rights, our adam smith the scot system of market-driven politics, and civilisation as a whole... i am deeply angry, resentful and mistrustful of how the whole shebang works to handle the GCC problem, to say the least... a 'problem' that we created in the first place, anyway.

IMO our civilisation is a fraud, and the way that we constructed it in the first place is also a fraud. so when i hear about this NSA thing, i tend to think-- uh, this is news?? i mean, in the age of our ISP's owning our data transactions the way they do, and large corporations (as you mentioned before) like google and yahoo, etc gathering absolutely as much info as possible, and the data hackers doing their thing.... i'm not even sure if PRISM is a good thing or a bad thing. i.e., someone is going to grab our info in a sense, so who do you want it to be?

understand... these are just thoughts that run through my mind. not trying to say i sell myself as anything more.

so that's more or less why i previously said that the whole thing is endlessly complicated to evaluate. it's also very frustrating and depressing, honestly.

IMO in evolutionary-terms we're still very much designed to be tribespeople, and the thing that war consistently teaches us is that we badly need enemies to actively exercise our aggression upon in order to maintain good health. that is, our biochemical package becomes enhanced in all the right ways and we quantifiably become healthier when we have a foe to direct upon. therefore i think it takes very hard work (maybe based on an ideal) for an person to grind past their instincts and try to arrive at a balanced view of a PITA issue, like this.

again, i don't really know modern US politics, but i did prefer the way this thread operated before... like we were just mates hanging out at a cafe, sipping our drinks, exchanging facts, and trying to take what our buddies said with a grain of salt.

but i don't know... maybe when the really challenging stuff comes down, so many ppl become angry that there's no chance but that a kevin-nyc has to get driven out of threads like this.

i would sort of agree in one way, however... if kevin is going to retreat over an issue and does consider that issue to have merit, then it would be better (for me) if he could make his position known a tad better.

all i know FOR SURE is that i know nothing. :D
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:52 AM   #344
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Lots of NSA stuff happened today.

Dana Priest who has written about National Security stuff for a while and won two Pulitzers for doing it explains how the NSA metadata program works.
Piercing the confusion around the NSA's phone surveillance program

The metadata program is not PRISM. The metadata program is known as the 215 order because section 215 of the Patriot Act is the authorization for it.

The metadata includes "date, time and duration. The metadata also includes a phone’s routing information, telephone calling card numbers and other identifiers internal to each phone. It does not include the content of the calls or the names of the phone subscribers. It does not contain information about the phone’s location."

The article says that only 22 people are permitted to approve a search of this metadata and it has to be connected to foreign terrorism. Say they catch a guy in Yemen and find a bunch of phone numbers on his laptop. One of these 22 people can approve the search of the database. They are looking to see the numbers on the laptop turn up in recent phone traffic. Once a search is authorized there are only 33 people in the NSA authorized to access this data.

Quote:
The analysts’ 215 requests go to one of the 22 people at the NSA who are permitted to approve them — the chief or the deputy chief of the Homeland Security Analysis Center or one of 20 authorized Homeland Security mission coordinators within the Signals Intelligence directorate’s analysis and production directorate.

Once a request is approved, it is given to one of the Signal Intelligence directorate’s 33 counterterrorism analysts who are authorized to access the U.S. phone metadata collection.

When one of the analysts attempts to log into the database, the computer verifies whether the analyst has permission to do so. Edward Snowden, the NSA contractor who leaked details of the program, would not have had such authority.

An analyst’s search of the metadata begins with a foreign number: the number the NSA intercept was targeting in Yemen; the number the Saudi intelligence liaison took from the detainee; numbers found in the computer in Afghanistan that show calls to Europe or the United States.

The analyst then queries the database to see if it contains the number. In 2012, the database was queried 300 times by an NSA analyst.

Once they have a number they do a bunch of other analysis to see if the number in the database still looks like its worth investigating. Those numbers are turned over to the FBI. 500 numbers were turned over in 2012.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:54 AM   #345
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Default Re: The BigAss 2nd term thread

Edward Snowden's email service got a visit from the government and shut down service rather than comply with it. And they gave very little info why they did this, meaning there's a gag order in place
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