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Old 05-01-2014, 10:21 AM   #5071
Trollsmasher
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
And the septon was no camp follower. Where would you even get that?


*spoilers though not really plot related...just a brief paragraph the show likely wont even go into*




He said he went with all his brothers one of them saying he could squire for him(even though his brother was himself...just a pot boy with a stolen kitchen knife). It was literally a bunch of kids going to war. One wask illed by an axe or a mace to the head. Couple others died of sickness. I think one had an arm cut off. He said after they were dead he was STILL marching having been claimed by some new lord he didn't even know.

It was the war of the ninepenny kings and he was a child soldier in it. Like thousands of others.

Hell Ned and Robert were what....17 when they took the throne?

Robb stark was 15 beating lannisters.

Child soldiers were not the least bit uncommon. They considered you an adult at 16. Jaimes squire Peck was 14 fighting on the blackwater and killed 2 knights and captured 2 more.

Child soldiers are the norm in westeros. Your claim lords wouldn't take boys with no weapons just isn't based in what we know. How many times are the words "Fire hardened spear" in there?

A LOT of people are fighting with no real weapons. Just....tree branches and kitchen knives. Jaime mentioned "soldiers" with garden tools.

Just being real...such people do not stand firm vs 40,000 charging professional killers.
I am not claiming child soldiers don't exist. Squiring at 14 is/was normal. I am claiming that children (or anyone else for that matter) without a proper equipment do not have a place in an army. What would a lord do with that kind of shit when he can use normal soldiers? No, they were boys that tried to take their chance in war - loot somebody's equipment, maybe kill someone important and get knighted. They fit right where the whores following the army fit - behind the army.

Above I have linked a thread on westeros boards with the most accurate descriptions of Westerosi armies from the books. All men are armed with steel swords, pikes, spears, lances, bows, crossbows, clad in gambesons, boiled leather, padded jacks, mail or plate and march and operate in formations.

Quote:
The karstarks came in on a cold windy morning, bringing three hundred horsemen and near two thousand foot from their castle at karhold. The steel points of their pikes winked in the pale sunlight as the column approached.

Ser wylis and his brother ser wendel followed, leading their levies, near fifteen hundred men: some twenty odd knights and as many squires, two hundred mounted lances, swordsmen, and freeriders, and the rest foot armed with spears, pikes and tridents.

Behind her came ser jared frey, ser hosteen frey, ser danwell frey, and lord walders basterd son ronald rivers, leading a long column of pikemen, rank on rank of shuffling men in blue steel ringmail and silver grey cloaks...

His uncle would lead the center. Ser kevan had raised his standerds above the kingsroad. Quivers hanging from their belts, the foot archers arrayed themselves into three long lines to east and west of the road, and stood calmly stringing their bows. Between them pikemen formed squares, behind were rank on rank of men at arms with spear and sword and axe. Three hundred heavy horse surrounded ser kevan and the lords bannermen lefford, lydden and serrett with all their sworn retainers. The right wing was all cavalry, some four thousand men, heavy with the weight of their armor. More then three quarters of the knights were there massed together like a great steel fist. Ser adam Marbrand had the command.

Were the right was a mailed fist of knights and heavy lances the vanguard was made up of the sweepings of the west: mounted archers in leather jerkins, a swarming mass of undisciplined freeriders and sellswords, fieldhands on plow horses armed with scythes and their fathers rusted swords half trained boys from the stews of lannisport, and tyrion and his mountain clansmen.

Even the biggest shits in Tywin's army, the fodder to lure the enemy into the trap, the so called sweepings of Lannisport are better armed AND disciplined than any single Dothraki. And half of those are still soldiers by profession - freeriders and sellswords.

Even the most backward cultures in Westeros, like the mountain clansmen, are better equipped than Dothraki.

Everyone who owns an equipment is some kind of professional soldier, because it is an expensive venture and there is no point in owning it if you do not ever use it in fight.

You are still claiming that the books say Dothraki would won. They don't. At Qohor they were a new, previously unseen threat and they still got destroyed by the Unsullied (even though it's just an exaggerated legend at this point), we see Jorah owning them left and right simply because of his superior equipment.

Who do they fight today? Pacifist Lhazareen? Damn, such a strong enemy. Each other? Great. That's like saying that 5'10 kid is the best basketball player in the world because he is able to beat other 5'10 kids.

Dothraki are not inheritly better soldiers than Westerosi soldiers. They are not better just because an uninformed guy like Robert who has never seen one says they would lose. In the books he in fact does not even say it. The thing he fears the most are Westerosi lords and their armies that would jump onto the Targaryen bandwagon. They are not better because they scream a lot or because they have bells in their hair.

Cavalry is not invincible. Light cavalry especially is not invincible. Guy with no armor is a dead guy. Guy with a slashing weapon - arakh - won't harm a man in chainmail.

Equipment and strategy are the two most important aspects of an open field battle - Dothraki have neither on their side. Numbers won't win you anything if the enemy outmatches you in every other department.

I ask you again - what do you expect to happen when a 20k khalasar charges into a pike square supported by an arrow fire and flanked by heavy cavalry (those don't even need to be knights)? These pikemen are professional soldiers on most part (they don't even need to be actually), they know the best chance thye got is to stay in their place. These archers can loose 4 volleys of arrows before the Dothraki even reach them. That heavy cavalry is basically invincible to any weapon Dothraki use.

I ask you to use a little dose of common sense which you repeatedly refuse to do.

I mean, being able to provide a military support is the whole base of feudalism, the concept which Martin used to base his world on and a concept he is clearly trying stand by. You are given a piece of land and when the lord calls, you have to go and provide a military support. If you are a bigger landowner, you take some of your men with you. You own your own equipment, because you know the war will come sooner or later and you regularly train with it, because there is not much else to do apart from farming from sunrise to sunset. Feudal armies were not made of amateurs and GRRM clearly knows that and that's why most of his descriptions of Westerosi armies fit with this concept and men like Septon Meribald are exceptions that prove the rule.

In fact - I have to give you something - there are farmers in those armies. Almost everyone was a farmer back then, but that did not mean you could not be a soldier as well.

Tree branchers and kitchen knives? Don't make me laugh. The ignorance is too much

This is my last post on the matter, because there clearly is no point in this discussion. Believe what you want. I shall believe rationality, my knowledge of feudalism and medieval military and most importantly - a careful reading of text.

TL;DR: Dothraki are complete shit. They don't wear armor, so a single arrow volley would kill thousands of them. They equip weapons that are useless against anything that is not a shitty leather jerkin. Your average soldier in chainmail is immune to anything a Dothraki can produce - be it a slash from arakh or a weak bow shot. They do not have any sense of tactics as they ride into the battle as a bunch of mindless screamers in one gigantic charge. Their command structure sucks so much that once you kill the khal, they fall apart and start fighting each other. They are a bastardized version of every single nomadic steppe nation in the history of Earth and if somebody like Genghis Khan ever saw them, he would laugh in their faces and piss on their corpses. There is not a single region in Westeros that would not defeat Drogo's khalasar on its own (before the war of the 5 Kings). The only use they would have in real warfare is as a harassment force for quick hit and run strikes.

edit: Man, I am tired from this. I should've ended this simply with the fact that Dothraki don't wear armor, which should be enough to confirm to anyone with brain that they are a bunch of total idiots.

Last edited by Trollsmasher : 05-01-2014 at 10:39 AM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:08 AM   #5072
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

Im just gonna ask you to read your own post and see the number of real soldiers/knights compared to foot. Manderly has 1500 men and 1300 on foot with spears and tridents. 3/4th of the actual knights....are in one group of 4000. 20 thousand men and 15 or so are not the type to stand against Dothraki....based on everything ever written of them. You can talk about the real world all you like. Im talking about a fantasy one with a history of the Dothraki beating everyone...including armored sellswords by the thousands....to the point Mormont mentions that you can no longer pay the free companies enough to stand against them.

And again...where you get the idea Maribald was some out of way camp follower is just beyond me. His actual words on what being a westeros soldier is:

***spoilers though it is a good speech***

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Quote:

Almost all are common-born, simple folk who had never been more than a mile from the house where they were born until the day some lord came round to take them off to war. Poorly shod and poorly clad, they march away beneath his banners, ofttimes with no better arms than a sickle or a sharpened hoe, or a maul they made themselves by lashing a stone to a stick with strips of hide. Brothers march with brothers, sons with fathers, friends with friends. They’ve heard the songs and stories, so they go off with eager hearts, dreaming of the wonders they will see, of the wealth and glory they will win. War seems a fine adventure, the greatest most of them will ever know.

“Then they get a taste of battle.

“For some, that one taste is enough to break them. Others go on for years, until they lose count of all the battles they have fought in, but even a man who has survived a hundred fights can break in his hundred-and-first. Brothers watch their brothers die, fathers lose their sons, friends see their friends trying to hold their entrails in after they’ve been gutted by an axe.

“They see the lord who led them there cut down, and some other lord shouts that they are his now. They take a wound, and when that’s still half-healed they take another. There is never enough to eat, their shoes fall to pieces from the marching, their clothes are torn and rotting, and half of them are shitting in their breeches from drinking bad water.

“If they want new boots or a warmer cloak or maybe a rusted iron halfhelm, they need to take them from a corpse, and before long they are stealing from the living too, from the smallfolk whose lands they’re fighting in, men very like the men they used to be. They slaughter their sheep and steal their chickens, and from there it’s just a short step to carrying off their daughters too. And one day they look around and realize all their friends and kin are gone, that they are fighting beside strangers beneath a banner that they hardly recognize.

They don’t know where they are or how to get back home and the lord they’re fighting for does not know their names, yet here he comes, shouting for them to form up, to make a line with their spears and scythes and sharpened hoes, to stand their ground. And the knights come down on them, faceless men clad all in steel, and the iron thunder of their charge seems to fill the world…
“And the man breaks.
“He turns and runs, or crawls off afterward over the corpses of the slain, or steals away in the black of night, and he finds someplace to hide. All thought of home is gone by then, and kings and lords and gods mean less to him than a haunch of spoiled meat that will let him live another day, or a skin of bad wine that might drown his fear for a few hours. The broken man lives from day to day, from meal to meal, more beast than man. Lady Brienne is not wrong. In times like these, the traveler must beware of broken men, and fear them…but he should pity them as well.”
When Meribald was finished a profound silence fell upon their little band. Brienne could hear the wind rustling through a clump of pussywillows, and farther off the faint cry of a loon. She could hear Dog panting softly as he loped along beside the septon and his donkey, tongue lolling from his mouth. The quiet stretched and stretched, until finally she said, “How old were you when they marched you off to war?”

“Why, no older than your boy,” Meribald replied. “Too young for such, in truth, but my brothers were all going, and I would not be left behind. Willam said I could be his squire, though Will was no knight, only a potboy armed with a kitchen knife he’d stolen from the inn. He died upon the Stepstones, and never struck a blow. It was fever did for him, and for my brother Robin. Owen died from a mace that split his head apart, and his friend Jon Pox was hanged for rape.”
“The War of the Ninepenny Kings?” asked Hyle Hunt.

“So they called it, though I never saw a king, nor earned a penny. It was a war, though. That it was.”


Elite fighting force right there.....

And I what world is a camp follower forming up lines and being ridden down by knights?

He was a 10 year old(Pod is 10 in the books) on the front lines with others holding garden tools and sticks.

The real soldiers are not real fighters.

Its knights and farmboys. The books make that very clear.

If there is any ignorance here its you forgetting 20 or 30 examples of people in their wars explaining this.

Bottom line...the actual battle commander of the west...one of the most accomplished military leaders in their worlds history...his thoughts on fighting the dothraki?

Hide. The guy who would actually be GIVING THE COMMANDS says.....hide.

And your boy mormont made it clear as well that Robert would be a fool to face them in an open field. Adding that even if he were stupid enough his advisers ned stark being one of them would know better than to attempt to fight them.

the commanders of both sides give them the edge.

That's really all that matters. The real world is not the world in question.

Last edited by Kblaze8855 : 05-01-2014 at 11:22 AM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:25 AM   #5073
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

Being infantry does not make you inferior or shitty Swiss pikemen were the most elite force in the late medieval Europe (you know, that era on which Westeros militaries are based on) and those guys could not ride a horse when their life depended on it. Pikemen with archery support are a perfect counter to a cavalry, especially light cavalry with no armor

10 years old boy is about as far away from your average soldier as Gregor Clegane, Meribald hardly speaks for everyone. Again I have given the descriptions of the armies of the WOT5K, all of them are vastly different from Meribald and all of them mention trained and equipped men fighting in learned formations.

I shall rather believe the descriptions of armies we are given in the text by people like Tyrion over a random idiot who went into the war with kitchen spoon as a 10 years old

And again, Robert has not seen a Dothraki in his life. He knows nothing of them.

The real world is not in question, but the logic and common sense are. If you have no armor and your horse has no armor and you ride into a pike wall with volleys of arrows raining upon you, you are dead in every single world.

Last edited by Trollsmasher : 05-01-2014 at 11:28 AM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:35 AM   #5074
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

Trollsmasher and Kblaze: Although your dedication to the mythology is admirable, perhaps your current argument would be better continued in the ASOIAF thread. This is a thread about the HBO show.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:39 AM   #5075
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by rufuspaul
Trollsmasher and Kblaze: Although your dedication to the mythology is admirable, perhaps your current argument would be better continued in the ASOIAF thread. This is a thread about the HBO show.
Nah, I am done with it. I said what I wanted to say. But this is relevant to the show too I would say and I don't think we spoilered anything or did we?

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Old 05-01-2014, 11:45 AM   #5076
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Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
Nah, I am done with it. I said what I wanted to say. But this is relevant to the show too I would and I don't think we spoilered anything or did we?


No, it's just getting a bit tedious. Thanks.
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:48 AM   #5077
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No, it's just getting a bit tedious. Thanks.
Yeah, I certainly went full pauk
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:49 AM   #5078
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
Being infantry does not make you inferior or shitty Swiss pikemen were the most elite force in the late medieval Europe (you know, that era on which Westeros militaries are based on) and those guys could not ride a horse when their life depended on it. Pikemen with archery support are a perfect counter to a cavalry, especially light cavalry with no armor

10 years old boy is about as far away from your average soldier as Gregor Clegane, Meribald hardly speaks for everyone. Again I have given the descriptions of the armies of the WOT5K, all of them are vastly different from Meribald and all of them mention trained and equipped men fighting in learned formations.

I shall rather believe the descriptions of armies we are given in the text by people like Tyrion over a random idiot who went into the war with kitchen spoon as a 10 years old

And again, Robert has not seen a Dothraki in his life. He knows nothing of them.

The real world is not in question, but the logic and common sense are. If you have no armor and your horse has no armor and you ride into a pike wall with volleys of arrows raining upon you, you are dead in every single world.



pshhh a goatherder with a two rivers longbow >>>>> any knight or dothraki

rep to whoever gets it
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Old 05-01-2014, 11:54 AM   #5079
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

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Originally Posted by rezznor
pshhh a goatherder with a two rivers longbow >>>>> any knight or dothraki

rep to whoever gets it
is this a WoT reference
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:06 PM   #5080
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trollsmasher
is this a WoT reference
repped

Quote:
the Two Rivers Longbow is the weapon of choice among Two Rivers folk. Typical unstrung bows are a hand or two taller than the person drawing them. Black yew is considered the best wood for constructing a Two Rivers Longbow while the bowstring is constructed of tightly wrapped cords coated in a thin layer of beeswax to protect it from the elements.

It has a range upwards of 500 paces and is so powerful that it can puncture clear through mail and oftentimes out the back end as well.

ParallelsEdit
The Two Rivers Longbow is no doubt a reference to the English Longbow, which is also made of yew with a very heavy draw weight and able to penetrate armor.

Last edited by rezznor : 05-01-2014 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 05-01-2014, 12:15 PM   #5081
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

I'm not saying they win in our world. I'm saying they win in theirs. What.....you think essos had engineers capable of building pyramids but never thought to put a spear wall and archers against the dothraki?

You can chalk it up to bad writing if you like. But the writing on the world at issue says they win.

And no we really didn't spoil anything major. If the septon is even in the show its gonna be for ten minutes. Its not part of the plot. Just downtime talking.
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Old 05-02-2014, 02:18 AM   #5082
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Default Re: A Game of Thrones

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kblaze8855
I'm not saying they win in our world. I'm saying they win in theirs. What.....you think essos had engineers capable of building pyramids but never thought to put a spear wall and archers against the dothraki?

You can chalk it up to bad writing if you like. But the writing on the world at issue says they win.

And no we really didn't spoil anything major. If the septon is even in the show its gonna be for ten minutes. Its not part of the plot. Just downtime talking.

Didn't the ancient Unsullied armies win a fight against the Dothraki though? Given how outdated the Unsullied are in comparison to Westeros armies wouldn't it make perfect sense that they would win?

I haven't read the books but watching the show the impression I get is that Westeros is Europe in the late medieval era and Essos is more like the Americas only someone dropped a poor mans version of the mongols in the middle and no surprise they win over there. I get the feeling of a whole bunch of primitive, disjointed city builders on Essos with the military technology being vastly inferior to the west.

The Dothraki to me feel like the 6 foot 8th grader who beats up on all his 4 foot tall mates and then gets his ass kicked when he plays against the seniors who are all bigger.

Again though, this is based entirely on watching the show and seeing the different technologies in use and nothing on what is written in the books!
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Old 05-02-2014, 03:15 AM   #5083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rezznor
pshhh a goatherder with a two rivers longbow >>>>> any knight or dothraki

rep to whoever gets it
One-handed Two Rivers polygamist Blademaster>>>One-handed sister-****ing child-killing Lord Commander.
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Old 05-02-2014, 05:40 AM   #5084
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I now all of a sudden feel like playing Skyrim now.
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Old 05-04-2014, 07:39 PM   #5085
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Rooting for Coldhands appearance tonight
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