ISH Hall of Fame Project: Class of 1970 Voting

[G.O.A.T]

I'm going to vote only the deserving, instead of at least 10 candidates.

4) In favor of a smaller hall rather than a larger hall

I agree with both of you and had we not already voted in Macauley and Stokes and Sharman, I too would have voted for just Russell and Sam Jones most likely.

I wonder if maybe you should not reconsider the level of exclusivity you want your voting to reflect.

If we do not work to build a consensus despite our differing personal opinions the total list of inducted players may not represent any of our feelings.

Also Gotter, it's up to ten players, not at least ten. You can vote for none or ten and anything in between.

[fpliii]

I agree with both of you and had we not already voted in Macauley and Stokes and Sharman, I too would have voted for just Russell and Sam Jones most likely.

I wonder if maybe you should not reconsider the level of exclusivity you want your voting to reflect.

If we do not work to build a consensus despite our differing personal opinions the total list of inducted players may not represent any of our feelings.

Also Gotter, it's up to ten players, not at least ten. You can vote for none or ten and anything in between.

I don't have an issue with Heinsohn, and probably would support him here. Johnston as well who it seems is carried over from the last thread, but my knowledge of his game is limited.

I see Hagan has received some support, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable voting for him here. I like Gola, K.C., and Rodgers as well, but I don't know if they warrant inclusion. I don't want to muck up the voting, but I might vote for Jones if it'll keep him on the ballot.

[G.O.A.T]

don't want to muck up the voting, but I might vote for Jones if it'll keep him on the ballot.

Certainly not mucking it up. That's why I added the two vote extension clause. I want people here to have a chance to argue the case for players they believe in as long as it takes or until no one else is buying it.

Great to have you aboard! Thanks again!

[G.O.A.T]

Voting Results so far

11 ballots cast

(11) Bill Russell
(11) Sam Jones
(7) Tom Heinsohn
(7) Neil Johnston
------------------------------
(6) Cliff Hagan
(5) Bob Davies
(5) Leroy Edwards
(4) Goose Tatum
(3) Charles Cooper
(2) Jack Twyman
(2) George Yardley
(2) Richie Guerin
(2) K.C. Jones
Tom Gola
Guy Rodgers
Clyde Lovellette

And GOAT, I just took the time to research Scott Hastings. Are you him? Can't think of any other reason someone would be his fan

Here's my Scott Hastings appreciation thread. This should explain.

[dankok8]

Johnston had such a short peak/prime. Only dominating post-Mikan and pre-Russell.

I can't remember where I read it from, but in a game vs. Celtics, Russell blocked his hook shot (one of Neil's go-to moves) I wanna say 8 straight times. And Johnston was never the same again.

Johnston seems like he was the best C in the league from '52-'53 to '56-'57 which is 5 consecutive seasons. Won a title in 1956 as a strong 2nd option (in the regular season he was actually more impactful than Arizin...), 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. Seriously he was pretty great.

Mikan by '52-'53 was already a shell due to injuries. Johnston getting murked by Russell is really no damnation. Bill is maybe the greatest basketball player ever to play this game. Pettit was first on record saying that he missed two straight point blank lay-ups looking for Bill Russell. Besides the real reason for Johnston's decline is injuries. And guess what when he missed much of the year in '58-'59 the Warriors took a dive in the standings. Until Wilt came over next year to rescue them...

[fpliii]

Certainly not mucking it up. That's why I added the two vote extension clause. I want people here to have a chance to argue the case for players they believe in as long as it takes or until no one else is buying it.

Great to have you aboard! Thanks again!

Sure thing.

Okay, I will vote for Heinsohn, Johnston, and K.C. (to keep him on the ballot) here as well (voted for Russ/Sam above).

[G.O.A.T]

Johnston seems like he was the best C in the league from '52-'53 to '56-'57 which is 5 consecutive seasons. Won a title in 1956 as a strong 2nd option (in the regular season he was actually more impactful than Arizin...), 4x 1st Team, 3x scoring champ, 3x FG% champ, 1x rebounding champ. Seriously he was pretty great.

You seem to be basing your conclusions entirely on stats. I've never seen anyone say that Johnston was better than Mikan at any point of their careers. As far as 1956, I don't think you can conclude that Johnston was impactful as Arizin when Paul finished second in the MVP vote and Johnston didn't receive any votes. In '57 when Johnston posted almost identical numbers he again received zero MVP votes.

In both seasons '56 and '57 you say it "seems like Johnston was the best center in the league". Pettit was playing center in 1956 and 1957. Also though he missed 24 games, Russell showed up in 1957 and there was no doubt he was better than Johnston.

In 1957 Arizin was injured in the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Syracuse beat Philadelphia 2-0. Red Kerr, who averaged 12 points per game during the season, outscored Johnston 47-38 in the two games. In 1958, Johnston was injured during the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Philadelphia beat Syracuse 2-1.

In 1955 Larry Foust was a better version of Johnston. His per 36 minute numbers are comparable to Neil's, he shot a higher field goal percentage (Johnston's specialty) and was the defensive anchor of the second best defensive team.

In 1956 Foust outplayed Johnston during every game in their playoff series, even though the Warriors won the series 4-1. Foust averaged 19 and 13 to Johnston's 13 and 11. The two great scoring games that Johnston had in that playoffs, 43 and 35 points versus Syracuse, were two of the teams three playoff losses.

Johnston was, by all available accounts, a pretty poor defensive player, a lot like Ed Macauley it would seem. Seeing average scorers like Kerr and Foust torch him sort of demonstrates that. The two years he was the teams best player they went 41-100 and he won two of his three scoring titles. Every time he led the league in scoring or rebounding his team missed the playoffs.

Basically the point I'm making is that the more this guy scored, the worse it was for his teams. And he was only a great scorer when it either didn't matter that much or he wasn't facing a quality opponent. That's my opinion anyway.

And the folks they call experts seem to agree. Despite his numbers, Johnston did not make the 25th anniversary team (Arizin did), the 35th anniversary team or the 50 greatest at 50 (again Arizin did). There seems to be a clear distinction drawn between the two in terms of who was the more impactful player. This combined with Johnston lack of playoff success and winning throughout his career to me demonstrate he was never an elite center the way Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Willis etc. were.

[kshutts1]

Here's my Scott Hastings appreciation thread. This should explain.

Seems like the Brian Scalabrine for the 80s bunch.

[G.O.A.T]

Seems like the Brian Scalabrine for the 80s bunch.

That's a fair comparison. He never had a moment like B Scal did vs. Detroit in game five of the 2004 ecsf, but both likable, funny end of the bench guys who didn't look like NBA players. Hastings best moments were the tip in game winner with the hawks and the time he ripped MJ at half court and was about to dunk when Jordan caught him from behind and stripped the ball.

The reason I wear his jersey to piston games is when I was a kid, he came out to sign autographs and take pictures with fans more than anyone else. I remember him giving a kid money to go buy him a hot dog before a game. When the kid got back he was like "no mustard?", just a good dude. He is (or was) a broadcaster in Denver now and is well liked there too.

[L.Kizzle]

You seem to be basing your conclusions entirely on stats. I've never seen anyone say that Johnston was better than Mikan at any point of their careers. As far as 1956, I don't think you can conclude that Johnston was impactful as Arizin when Paul finished second in the MVP vote and Johnston didn't receive any votes. In '57 when Johnston posted almost identical numbers he again received zero MVP votes.

In both seasons '56 and '57 you say it "seems like Johnston was the best center in the league". Pettit was playing center in 1956 and 1957. Also though he missed 24 games, Russell showed up in 1957 and there was no doubt he was better than Johnston.

In 1957 Arizin was injured in the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Syracuse beat Philadelphia 2-0. Red Kerr, who averaged 12 points per game during the season, outscored Johnston 47-38 in the two games. In 1958, Johnston was injured during the playoffs (played some, ineffective) and Philadelphia beat Syracuse 2-1.

In 1955 Larry Foust was a better version of Johnston. His per 36 minute numbers are comparable to Neil's, he shot a higher field goal percentage (Johnston's specialty) and was the defensive anchor of the second best defensive team.

In 1956 Foust outplayed Johnston during every game in their playoff series, even though the Warriors won the series 4-1. Foust averaged 19 and 13 to Johnston's 13 and 11. The two great scoring games that Johnston had in that playoffs, 43 and 35 points versus Syracuse, were two of the teams three playoff losses.

Johnston was, by all available accounts, a pretty poor defensive player, a lot like Ed Macauley it would seem. Seeing average scorers like Kerr and Foust torch him sort of demonstrates that. The two years he was the teams best player they went 41-100 and he won two of his three scoring titles. Every time he led the league in scoring or rebounding his team missed the playoffs.

Basically the point I'm making is that the more this guy scored, the worse it was for his teams. And he was only a great scorer when it either didn't matter that much or he wasn't facing a quality opponent. That's my opinion anyway.

And the folks they call experts seem to agree. Despite his numbers, Johnston did not make the 25th anniversary team (Arizin did), the 35th anniversary team or the 50 greatest at 50 (again Arizin did). There seems to be a clear distinction drawn between the two in terms of who was the more impactful player. This combined with Johnston lack of playoff success and winning throughout his career to me demonstrate he was never an elite center the way Mikan, Russell, Wilt, Thurmond, Willis etc. were.

Were Ed Macauley and Larry Foust and Red Kerr better than Johnston?

Also, what about Harry Gallatin, Red Rocha, Arnie Risen, Mell Hutchins,, Ray Felix and Clyde Lovellette?

[fpliii]

G.O.A.T. - How much time is remaining in this round? I want to do some more research on Johnston to decide if I made the right decision (since it seems my vote is the one that put him above the threshold for enshrinement).

[nightprowler10]

You almost need a "pioneers" section of the HOF for guys like Goose and Davies. Anyway, bolded for me please:

Goose Tatum
Bob Davies
Neil Johnston
George Yardley
Tarzan Cooper
Leroy Edwards
Clyde Lovellette
Wayne Embry
Tom Gola
Richie Guerin
Cliff Hagan
Tom Heinsohn
K.C. Jones
Sam Jones
Red Kerr
Bill Russell
Jack Twyman

[G.O.A.T]

G.O.A.T. - How much time is remaining in this round? I want to do some more research on Johnston to decide if I made the right decision (since it seems my vote is the one that put him above the threshold for enshrinement).

Going to start a new one around 6pm est, about 6 hours from now.

@nightprowler

We will be voting in pioneers/contributors afterward. I agree it is a neccasary distinction.

[G.O.A.T]

Last call...

At this point Russell, Sam Jones and Heinsohn in, Johnston and Hagan on the outside looking in, nine others to be extended at least one more class.

[fpliii]

Last call...

At this point Russell, Sam Jones and Heinsohn in, Johnston and Hagan on the outside looking in, nine others to be extended at least one more class.

I'm going to withdraw my support for Johnston, since it doesn't seem like I'll be the make-or-break vote. Not enough defense from those teams, and their two best offenses during his tenure in Philly (56 and 57) were anchored by Arizin.

Still a no on Hagan as well, at least this time around. I'll reconsider him next thread.