Most significant, unknown statistic of Michael Jordan

[tpols]

Here, i will explain it for you in more detail to truly understand how stupid it is to use this statistic to say that more scoring minded players or bigmen/spotup shooters take care the ball better than PGs/those who pass the ball more.... i am gona use only those players Derivative listed.

Chris Pauls career assist to turnover ratio is 4.1
Magic Johnsons career assist to turnover ratio is 2.8.
Lebron James career best assist to turnover ratio is 2.2.
Larry Birds assist to turnover ratio is 2.0.
Michael Jordans assist to turnover ratio is 1.9.
Kobe Bryants assist to turnover ratio is 1.5.

Now, lets say all of them passed/assisted the ball equally much... lets put it at exactly 5 assists a game... this is what you get:

Chris Pauls 4.1 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 1.2 turnovers with 5 apg.

Magic Johnsons 2.8 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 1.8 turnovers with 5 apg.

Lebron James 2.2 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.2
turnovers with 5 apg.

Larry Birds 2.0 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.5 turnovers with 5 apg.

Michael Jordans 1.9 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.6 turnovers with 5 apg.

Kobe Bryants 1.5 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 3.4 turnovers with 5 apg.



Understand? If all passed the ball equally much CP3, Magic and Lebron would amongst these players guaranteed lead in this "unknown statistic" the OP presented for us..... Keep also in mind that CP3, Magic, Lebron all handled the ball more/had more PG duties (usage% is a different category) while also passing the ball more.... and still would be turning the ball over less at ANY EQUAL PASSING RATE compared to Bird, Jordan and especially Kobe....

I just agreed with your one point above.. But doesn't turnover percentage taken into account scoring too? It's gotta. So you're excluding a huge variable here. Still its easier to turn the ball over on a pass than a shot because there's two parties than can make the mistake instead of one.

[Cali Syndicate]

Here, i will explain it for you in more detail to truly understand how stupid it is to use this statistic to say that more scoring minded players or bigmen/spotup shooters take care the ball better than PGs/those who pass the ball more.... i am gona use only those players Derivative listed.

Chris Pauls career assist to turnover ratio is 4.1
Magic Johnsons career assist to turnover ratio is 2.8.
Lebron James career assist to turnover ratio is 2.2.
Larry Birds career assist to turnover ratio is 2.0.
Michael Jordans career assist to turnover ratio is 1.9.
Kobe Bryants career assist to turnover ratio is 1.5.

Now, lets say all of them passed/assisted the ball equally much... lets put it at exactly 5 assists a game... this is what you get:

Chris Pauls 4.1 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 1.2 turnovers with 5 apg.

Magic Johnsons 2.8 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 1.8 turnovers with 5 apg.

Lebron James 2.2 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.2 turnovers with 5 apg.

Larry Birds 2.0 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.5 turnovers with 5 apg.

Michael Jordans 1.9 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.6 turnovers with 5 apg.

Kobe Bryants 1.5 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 3.4 turnovers with 5 apg.



Understand? If all passed the ball equally much CP3, Magic and Lebron would amongst these players guaranteed lead in this "unknown statistic" the OP presented for us..... Keep also in mind that CP3, Magic, Lebron all handled the ball more/had more PG duties (usage% is a different category) while also passing the ball more.... and still would be turning the ball over less at ANY EQUAL PASSING RATE compared to Bird, Jordan and especially Kobe....

Playmakers are more prone to turnovers than facilitators. Playmakers are making things happen, creating an opportunity out of nothing. Facilitators are running and offense, running set plays, passing to a runner off screens which is much easier than creating.

[Mr. Jabbar]

Of course if he had a pass-first mentality he would have turned it over more, but with that usage, the real answer to the question is:

MAD HANDLES

[chazzy]

Not all turnovers are caused by pass/assist attempts. So it doesn't really make sense extrapolate assist/TO ratio

[pauk]

I just agreed with your one point above.. But doesn't turnover percentage taken into account scoring too? It's gotta. So you're excluding a huge variable here. Still its easier to turn the ball over on a pass than a shot because there's two parties than can make the mistake instead of one.

Ofcourse more scoring minded guys are prone to turning the ball over (fumbling the ball on the drive, offensive fouls for example) but not more than guys who bring the ball up and pass the ball the entire game (and they to might wanna score).... there is just much more ways to turn the ball over like that...

[pauk]

To understand even further (chazzy & cali syndicate), here is what happens in every basketball game:

1. Soon as the ball inbounds your primary ballhandler takes up the ball (sometimes even under fullcourt pressure defense and traps), so he is already at risk for a turnover... during this time a SG/SF/PF/C is at ZERO turnover risk as all they do is casually jog up the court, they dont have the ball in their hands... sometimes one of the ballhandlers teammates may breakaway/leak out early for what seems to be an open layup/dunk, so the ballhandler will take even further risk by trying to deliver you the ball all the way from his own basket... of the dribble... while being full court pressured.....

2. As the ballhandler is then in the offensive half-court he is orchestrating and vocally & with body language or hand signs setting up plays (while still being ball pressured and keeping the dribble alive and trying to keep it safe), so he is still the biggest risk for making a turnover...... during this time a SG/SF/PF/C is at ZERO turnover risk yet again since they dont have the ball in their hands (unless they make a stupid offensive foul)...

3. Lets say the ballhandler called for a catch-n-shoot play for a SG/SF.... now while the ballhandler is still doing all the things above being the ONLY guy risking getting a turnover (unless one of his teammates make a stupid of the ball offensive foul) he is now trying to time a perfect delivery to you risking yet another turnover.......

4. Lets say the ballhandler called for an ISO or Post-Up.... Jordan/Kobe get in position for the ball, now the ballhandler is yet again at risk for turning the ball over trying to deliver you that "simple" pass... Jordan/Kobe would be not (unless yet again they make a stupid offensive foul without the ball), not even when catching the ball will they be at so big risk for making a turnover... since their intention is to shoot the ball, the only failure there is a miss or a blocked shot... which neither gives a turnover...

There is just to much variables the main ballhandler has to go through in order to not turn the ball over compared to anybody else in his team....

The main ballhandler is the main ballhandler because he is the best at taking care of the ball.... but because of that is also at the highest risk of doing just that, turning the ball over..... but compared to anybody else, HE would be the one turning the ball over the least in his team to most safely deliver & hande the ball..... somebody has to do the job...

[TheBigVeto]

Magic is so sloppy, I need to downgrade him from the top 5 GOAT PGs.

[pauk]

Magic is so sloppy, I need to downgrade him from the top 5 GOAT PGs.

But you have to understand that somebody like CP3 is/was MUCH more conservative/careful with his passes.... Magic was much wilder, the wildest passer in NBA history infact, he would try to deliver you the ball in the most ridicilous ways imaginable.... hence putting himself at higher risk for turnovers than CP3 (while also delivering much more highlights than CP3)... when you consider that then 2.8 assist to turnover is actually very impressive + the huge pile of assists he got... Magic could have been just as conservative of a passer as CP3 or anybody else in NBA history and he always was that conservative when it was especially important to not turn the ball over... but could CP3 (or anybody) else throw such a constant huge amount of insane passes while still maintaining a 2.8 assist to turnover ratio with up to 13 assists? Its less likely.....
so i suggest you not only put him back in your TOP 5 PGs, but put him at #1 and make a huge gap (especially when considering what the guy accomplished)... :)

[LeBird]

it doesn't have much to do whether your PG or a bigman.... as there's no correlation. the only thing that matters is how good you are

What are you talking about? It is correlative. Even though MJ carried the ball a lot, he didn't pass it much therefore his turnover % would be down because the more you pass the ball the more you are likely to turn it over.

[OldSchoolBBall]

I've cited this stat for a while now. Actually, before bball-reference went to TOV% and instead tracked TO/gm for qualifying players, Jordan was in the top 15 in terms of lowest TO/gm ever.

As you said, this is an amazing stat for someone who was an enormously high volume scorer and playmaker, and who was the focus of every defense he ever faced. Goes to show you his incredible bball IQ, decision making, and how he always played under control.

As others have noted, though yes, higher apg players will tend to average more TO's, you can't simply extrapolate TO numbers from APG, because TO's also come on scoring attempts or even just from handling the ball, mishandling a pass etc.

[OhNoTimNoSho]

But you have to understand that somebody like CP3 is/was MUCH more conservative/careful with his passes.... Magic was much wilder, the wildest passer in NBA history infact, he would try to deliver you the ball in the most ridicilous ways imaginable.... hence putting himself at higher risk for turnovers than CP3 (while also delivering much more highlights than CP3)... when you consider that then 2.8 assist to turnover is actually very impressive + the huge pile of assists he got... Magic could have been just as conservative of a passer as CP3 or anybody else in NBA history and he always was that conservative when it was especially important to not turn the ball over... but could CP3 (or anybody) else throw such a constant huge amount of insane passes while still maintaining a 2.8 assist to turnover ratio with up to 13 assists? Its less likely.....
so i suggest you not only put him back in your TOP 5 PGs, but put him at #1 and make a huge gap (especially when considering what the guy accomplished)... :)

I find it amusing that you just took the time to explain a concept as simple and obvious as this to a bunch of jackasses that will forget it immediately or never understand it.

[Dragonyeuw]

What was Jordan's usage % compared to other elite point guards circa 1988-1990? Surely he must have been handling the ball as much as the average point guard before Pippen developed and the triangle offense kicked in? I mean, he was playing point guard over a stretch in 1989 and was averaging practically triple-double numbers over a long stretch of games.

[scm5]

Here, i will explain it for you in more detail to truly understand how stupid it is to use this statistic to say that more scoring minded players or bigmen/spotup shooters take care the ball better than PGs/those who pass the ball more.... i am gona use only those players Derivative listed.

Chris Pauls career assist to turnover ratio is 4.1
Magic Johnsons career assist to turnover ratio is 2.8.
Lebron James career assist to turnover ratio is 2.2.
Larry Birds career assist to turnover ratio is 2.0.
Michael Jordans career assist to turnover ratio is 1.9.
Kobe Bryants career assist to turnover ratio is 1.5.

Now, lets say all of them passed/assisted the ball equally much... lets put it at exactly 5 assists a game... this is what you get:

Chris Pauls 4.1 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 1.2 turnovers with 5 apg.

Magic Johnsons 2.8 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 1.8 turnovers with 5 apg.

Lebron James 2.2 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.2 turnovers with 5 apg.

Larry Birds 2.0 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.5 turnovers with 5 apg.

Michael Jordans 1.9 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 2.6 turnovers with 5 apg.

Kobe Bryants 1.5 assist to turnover ratio means he would average 3.4 turnovers with 5 apg.



Understand? If all passed the ball equally much CP3, Magic and Lebron would amongst these players guaranteed lead in this "unknown statistic" the OP presented for us..... Keep also in mind that CP3, Magic, Lebron all handled the ball more/had more PG duties (usage% is a different category) while also passing the ball more.... and still would be turning the ball over less at ANY EQUAL PASSING RATE compared to Bird, Jordan and especially Kobe....

No.

In the 88-89' season, the season before Pippen truly became a point-forward, Jordan put up 32.5/8/8/2.9 on just 3.6 TO/gm.

We don't know what would have happened if Jordan kept full-time playmaking duties, but we know that his 3.6 TO/gm was insanely good for a player putting up 32.5ppg and 8apg.

[DatAsh]

Nice, but its very wrong to compare that statistic with Point-Guards or Point-Forwards like Chris Paul, Magic Johnson and Lebron James because they pass/passed the ball much more, working more as a distributor makes you much more prone for turnovers, often they will recieve a turnover despite it not being their fault, like making a simple pass to teammate and he fumbles the ball giving YOU the turnover (since your teammate didnt have possession of the ball)....

Where as a player with a score-first mindset has to think about much more often is simply throwing the ball at the hoop instead a passer must think about also throwing the ball at many other directions and much more often.

This may also explain to you why its mostly bigmen or spot up shooters in that statistics top 50.

With guys who work more as facilitators what you should look more at is assist to turnover ratio..... and in that all of those PGs or Point-Forwards you listed above will have Jordan beat....

For Magic and Paul I think you're right, but Lebron and (especially)Kobe are fair comparison. Neither of those players passes the ball significantly more than Jordan did. Lebron certainly passes more, but we're somewhat splitting hairs by analyzing the difference between a 6apg player and a 7apg player.

For those of you interested in advanced stats, this is arguably one of Jordan's greatest strengths; it even greatly affects his overall team turnover rate. For instance, the 93' Bulls turned the ball over at a rate of just 12%; the 94' Bulls, without Jordan, dropped to 14.6%, 14.5% in 95' and subsequently improved back to 13% upon Jordan's return.

[DatAsh]

To understand even further (chazzy & cali syndicate), here is what happens in every basketball game:

1. Soon as the ball inbounds your primary ballhandler takes up the ball (sometimes even under fullcourt pressure defense and traps), so he is already at risk for a turnover... during this time a SG/SF/PF/C is at ZERO turnover risk as all they do is casually jog up the court, they dont have the ball in their hands... sometimes one of the ballhandlers teammates may breakaway/leak out early for what seems to be an open layup/dunk, so the ballhandler will take even further risk by trying to deliver you the ball all the way from his own basket... of the dribble... while being full court pressured.....

2. As the ballhandler is then in the offensive half-court he is orchestrating and vocally & with body language or hand signs setting up plays (while still being ball pressured and keeping the dribble alive and trying to keep it safe), so he is still the biggest risk for making a turnover...... during this time a SG/SF/PF/C is at ZERO turnover risk yet again since they dont have the ball in their hands (unless they make a stupid offensive foul)...

3. Lets say the ballhandler called for a catch-n-shoot play for a SG/SF.... now while the ballhandler is still doing all the things above being the ONLY guy risking getting a turnover (unless one of his teammates make a stupid of the ball offensive foul) he is now trying to time a perfect delivery to you risking yet another turnover.......

4. Lets say the ballhandler called for an ISO or Post-Up.... Jordan/Kobe get in position for the ball, now the ballhandler is yet again at risk for turning the ball over trying to deliver you that "simple" pass... Jordan/Kobe would be not (unless yet again they make a stupid offensive foul without the ball), not even when catching the ball will they be at so big risk for making a turnover... since their intention is to shoot the ball, the only failure there is a miss or a blocked shot... which neither gives a turnover...

There is just to much variables the main ballhandler has to go through in order to not turn the ball over compared to anybody else in his team....

The main ballhandler is the main ballhandler because he is the best at taking care of the ball.... but because of that is also at the highest risk of doing just that, turning the ball over..... but compared to anybody else, HE would be the one turning the ball over the least in his team to most safely deliver & hande the ball..... somebody has to do the job...

Both Kobe and Jordan were the main ballhandlers on their teams for much of their careers.