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Old 06-30-2016, 12:17 AM   #1501
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by Young X
Just them. It's tough for me to put him above any of those guys although you can certainly make a good argument.

So then I don't understand the comments about Leonard benefiting a lot from his circumstances if you think he's the 6th best player in the league in a vacuum.

And I don't get your issue overall unless I've missed something with people taking Leonard over the likes of Curry or Lebron.

Yea..I think Leonard is probably the 5th best player. Wouldn't argue with you much about Paul...wouldn't argue with someone much if they said Leonard was better than WB...I'd just disagree.
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:21 AM   #1502
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Typical straw man. I never said the regular season doesn't count...

I said when looking at two players...I'd rather have the guy that performs better in the playoffs.
'That isn't where great players are made..." Somebody named DMavs41 posted that - could be somebody else on your account? Wilt was great the second he stepped on the court. It wasn't questionable. Same thing with Jordan. Lebron was great to before he got to the playoffs. Kareem was the best player in the 70's without question and it was basically because of his regular season play primarily.
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and it certainly isn't when you find out the difference between players."
Even if they are equal in playoff play????
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You tell which player you want;

Player A plays 10% better than player B in the regular season

Player B plays 10% better than player A in the playoffs

Which player do you want as your franchise player?
Strawman argument.

But for funs sake:
player A is Hakeem playing for Popovich
player B is Shaq playing for Brett Brown

unquestionably I would take player A. You weren't reading the post.
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:30 AM   #1503
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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'That isn't where great players are made..." Somebody named DMavs41 posted that - could be somebody else on your account? Wilt was great the second he stepped on the court. It wasn't questionable. Same thing with Jordan. Lebron was great to before he got to the playoffs. Kareem was the best player in the 70's without question and it was basically because of his regular season play primarily.

Even if they are equal in playoff play????

Strawman argument.

But for funs sake:
player A is Hakeem playing for Popovich
player B is Shaq playing for Brett Brown

unquestionably I would take player A. You weren't reading the post.

Please don't hijack the thread. I was in a conversation about separating the all time elite players.

Your answer doesn't make sense. It ignores the whole point of the hypothetical. Of course you didn't answer...it destroys you.

We all know that you'd rather have the guy that is better in the playoffs than the guy that is better in the regular season when comparing elite players.

Literally nobody, but you, would deny this.

Nobody.
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:32 AM   #1504
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
So then I don't understand the comments about Leonard benefiting a lot from his circumstances if you think he's the 6th best player in the league in a vacuum.

And I don't get your issue overall unless I've missed something with people taking Leonard over the likes of Curry or Lebron.

Yea..I think Leonard is probably the 5th best player. Wouldn't argue with you much about Paul...wouldn't argue with someone much if they said Leonard was better than WB...I'd just disagree.
That's why I said I feel he was just slightly overrated.

The comments about him befitting from being on the Spurs are just taking everything into account.

He doesn't have to carry as big a load as other guys, he doesn't face the same defensive pressure, doesn't get anywhere near as scrutinized.

Playing in such a winning environment without having the same responsibilities as other elite players I believe positively affects his status in the league and some people's ranking of him even if a little.

He's a fantastic player and I don't think there's anything wrong with ranking him that high but I just disagree with it.
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:36 AM   #1505
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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That's why I said I feel he was just slightly overrated.

The comments about him befitting from being on the Spurs are just taking everything into account.

He doesn't have to carry as big a load as other guys, he doesn't face the same defensive pressure, doesn't get anywhere near as scrutinized.

Playing in such a winning environment without having the same responsibilities as other elite players I believe positively affects his status in the league and some people's ranking of him even if a little.

He's a fantastic player and I don't think there's anything wrong with ranking him that high but I just disagree with it.

I mean...you conceded that Curry benefits a ton from his circumstances. Durant and WB are on the same team...two top 5 players.

I guess I'm just not seeing it when you rank him 6th...and nobody else has him higher than 5th really...maybe 4th...but I'd bet that is super rare.

Does this really all just come down to Paul vs Leonard?
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Old 06-30-2016, 12:56 AM   #1506
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I mean...you conceded that Curry benefits a ton from his circumstances. Durant and WB are on the same team...two top 5 players.

I guess I'm just not seeing it when you rank him 6th...and nobody else has him higher than 5th really...maybe 4th...but I'd bet that is super rare.

Does this really all just come down to Paul vs Leonard?
All these guys benefit in some way from their situation but Leonard does more than them.

He's on a team that has a winning tradition and environment with multiple HOF's and high IQ guys. In a position where he doesn't have to do as much heavy lifting and his shortcoming(s) as a player aren't as exposed.

I think if you factor in what they bring to their teams Westbrook AND Paul should be ranked over him.

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Old 06-30-2016, 01:01 AM   #1507
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I was in a conversation about separating the all time elite players.
You are lying. You are responding to a post about "Durant, Westbrook and Leonard... ." You later incorporate Mello and Teague. There is no mention of all time elite players at all by you or Young X the guy you are responding to.

The statement: "That isn't where great players are made.." you are definitely delineating where great players are made but you are definitely talking about the names above.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:02 AM   #1508
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by Young X
All these guys benefit in some way from their situation but Leonard does more than them.

He's on a team that has a winning tradition and environment with multiple HOF's and high IQ guys. In a position where his shortcomings as a player aren't as exposed.

In what ways are Leonard's shortcomings covered up by the Spurs in a way that Curry's shortcomings aren't covered up the Warriors?

Also, what players on the Spurs were playing at even an all-star level...let alone a HOF level...other than LMA in the playoffs this year?

It's pretty disingenuous to talk about Manu/Parker/Duncan like that in the playoffs this year.

In fact, Leonard's production has gone up since those guys took more of a back seat...and he was just the best player on a 67 win team.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:04 AM   #1509
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
You are lying. You are responding to a post about "Durant, Westbrook and Leonard... ." You later incorporate Mello and Teague. There is no mention of all time elite players at all by you or Young X the guy you are responding to.

The statement: "That isn't where great players are made.." you are definitely delineating where great players are made but you are definitely talking about the names above.

Dude...please don't derail this. It was within a conversation...you are conflating two different things there.

The point about Melo and Teague was in relation to the playoffs mattering more...not being what separates the best players.

No mention of elite players? More BS...here is a line from a post I made earlier;

But I don't see what Curry has done in his career in the playoffs (really all I care about with players at this level) to put him on a different tier than Durant.

Clearly a distinction about players at the elite level.

Won't respond to you until you answer the actual hypothetical I presented you...nothing added. Answer the hypothetical with player A or player B.

The I'll respond to whatever you want.

If not...

Last edited by DMAVS41 : 06-30-2016 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:12 AM   #1510
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
Dude...please don't derail this. It was within a conversation...you are conflating two different things there.

The point about Melo and Teague was in relation to the playoffs mattering more...not being what separates the best players.
You fully understand that you lied. You were talking about Westbrook, Durant and Leonard. Not all time greats like you lied and said. Melo and Teague are sidebars but you mentioned them and you weren't talking about all time greats. Its not a derail because regular season is a measure of greatness.

Quote:
Won't respond to you until you answer the actual hypothetical I presented you...nothing added. Answer the hypothetical with player A or player B.

The I'll respond to whatever you want.

If not...
Isn't this a derail? I'm talking about your measure of greatness.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:17 AM   #1511
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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In what ways are Leonard's shortcomings covered up by the Spurs in a way that Curry's shortcomings aren't covered up the Warriors?

Also, what players on the Spurs were playing at even an all-star level...let alone a HOF level...other than LMA in the playoffs this year?

It's pretty disingenuous to talk about Manu/Parker/Duncan like that in the playoffs this year.

In fact, Leonard's production has gone up since those guys took more of a back seat...and he was just the best player on a 67 win team.
To be honest, their shortcomings are both covered up pretty well. The Warriors and Spurs are the 2 best organizations in the league right now. Curry is just a flat out better player though. His shortcomings like PG defense and turnovers aren't as important as the ability to make plays at a high level.

No one besides LMA played at an all-star level but you have to consider the coaching and the ridiculous amount of contributing players outside of Leonard.

Manu, Parker and Duncan were struggling in the playoffs. This is something that rarely happens and how did Leonard respond? Not very well. He couldn't provide any spark on offense and the Spurs lost in the 2nd round with homecourt despite winning 67 games. He got outplayed by 2 great offensive players.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:19 AM   #1512
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by Young X
To be honest, their shortcomings are both covered up pretty well. The Warriors and Spurs are the 2 best organizations in the league right now. Curry is just a flat out better player though. His shortcomings like PG defense and turnovers aren't as important as the ability to make plays at a high level.

No one besides LMA played at an all-star level but you have to consider the coaching and the ridiculous amount of contributing players outside of Leonard.

Manu, Parker and Duncan were struggling in the playoffs. This is something that rarely happens and how did Leonard respond? Not very well. He couldn't provide any spark on offense and the Spurs lost in the 2nd round with homecourt despite winning 67 games.

Agreed.

So don't you think it's a bit unfair if the back to back MVP has his shortcomings covered up as well?

Nobody thinks Leonard is as good as Curry...
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:23 AM   #1513
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
You fully understand that you lied. You were talking about Westbrook, Durant and Leonard. Not all time greats like you lied and said. Melo and Teague are sidebars but you mentioned them and you weren't talking about all time greats. Its not a derail because regular season is a measure of greatness.

Isn't this a derail? I'm talking about your measure of greatness.

I'll give you one more try...answer the question.

Oh, and by the way, this should be perfectly clear to those with a brain;

You missed my point about separating the elite of the elite in the playoffs. I wasn't arguing that the regular season is meaningless.

Here is what I said;


But I don't see what Curry has done in his career in the playoffs (really all I care about with players at this level) to put him on a different tier than Durant.

Notice the bold...players at that level. That isn't remotely close to saying Malone isn't top 20. It's simply saying that finding the difference between some of the best players of all time isn't going to be found in the regular season playing against competition that isn't good and isn't trying hard consistently.


LOL...I'm not saying you only use 1...I'm saying the playoffs are a different game altogether. You play the best competition and you play a team locked in and giving it their all. You aren't playing bad teams that are tired after 5 games in 7 night half the damn time.

I'm not saying you remove the regular season completely...this example should illustrate my point.


Doesn't mean those games don't count...they just matter less when separating the best players in the game and the best players of all time.

If you can't read that and understand I wasn't saying the regular season doesn't matter altogether...I give up.

So...last chance

Answer the question.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:28 AM   #1514
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
No mention of elite players? More BS...here is a line from a post I made earlier;

But I don't see what Curry has done in his career in the playoffs (really all I care about with players at this level) to put him on a different tier than Durant.
Are you serious? You are bringing up a whole different post? I said you weren't talking about all time greats like you lied and said. So what if you mention them??? Come on. THIS IS THE POST IN QUESTION.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...postcount=1481 Now you are bringing in further lies.
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Old 06-30-2016, 01:30 AM   #1515
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Default Re: The Best Players in the NBA: A Year-by-Year Analysis

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Originally Posted by DMAVS41
I'll give you one more try...answer the question.

Oh, and by the way, this should be perfectly clear to those with a brain;

You missed my point about separating the elite of the elite in the playoffs. I wasn't arguing that the regular season is meaningless.

Here is what I said;


[b]But I don't see what Curry has done in his career in the playoffs (really all I care about with players at this level) to put him on a different tier than Durant.

Sorry dude, this isn't the post in question and you know it. You are lying again.
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