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Old 11-02-2010, 05:46 PM   #31
Doko
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlªshGordon
+1



No, that is not what a franchise player is. At least not from this fan's perspective. There is a difference between who you are promoting as the face of your franchise and a true franchise player. A franchise player should be practically synonymous with superstar. A player who can carry a team, elevate the team's play and his own. It is a player who you can truly build around and could carry a team of players who are around the average mark, ala LeBron when he took the Cavs to the finals against the Spurs, or Wade since day 1. Give Wade a few parts that are above average and he wins a ring. Bosh doesn't equal a franchise player.

As for the pieces put together last season: how is Turkoglu doing in Phoenix under a different coach? Get back to me on how the "pieces" Colangelo assembled for to win with are doing on different teams this year under different coaches. Belinelli? Wright? No, the Raps team of 09/10 was not very good, better than this year, but still not very good. http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/TOR/2010.html It was a poorly assembled group of players. Colangelo is not as smart as everyone thought.

I agree with your premise, that Bosh isn't franchise player material, but to me, the conclusion is different. Last year's supporting cast was good, and it failed because Bosh is no franchise player. Give that supporting cast to Lebron or Wade or Duncan, they'll go deep in the playoffs. Last year's supporting cast was better than what Lebron and Wade had, the difference was that when you have a player like Bosh, who is a star but not a franchise player, you can't just put talent around him, you have to build around him putting together pieces that hide his weaknesses. Colangelo just kept accumulating random talent around Bosh, he should have brought in role players that matched better with Bosh' play.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:36 PM   #32
Qwyjibo
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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Give that supporting cast to Lebron or Wade or Duncan, they'll go deep in the playoffs.
Lebron and Wade are the 2 best players in the NBA. I don't think anyone had those kinds of expectations for Bosh. That would be unreasonable. And I don't see today's Duncan (who IMO, is also still a better overall player than Bosh) doing much with the supporting case of the Raptors, as much of a fan of his game as I am. Parker and Ginobili are better than anyone on the Raptors and the Spurs haven't made it out of the 2nd round the last two years.

You want Bosh to be something that he doesn't have the talent to be. A superstar top player in the NBA. He's more of a top 15 guy. But since there was no way the Raptors would be able to get a player even of his caliber unless they tanked and got lucky in the draft, you still need to try to build around him properly. That was never done. The talent around Lebron wasn't anything great either in Cleveland. The difference there was that Lebron was/is, IMO, unquestionably the best player in the league and the players around him, while not too talented, were great complements for his style. Neither of which was true for Bosh's supporting cast other than the Ford/Parker/Garbo/Rasho lineup which fit-wise was solid.

So if you think Bosh was the problem then the only solution is to tank every year until you get a player better than him in the draft. That's the only way to get players of that caliber in today's NBA and talent wins in the NBA.

Quote:
who is a star but not a franchise player, you can't just put talent around him, you have to build around him putting together pieces that hide his weaknesses.
You have to do that with any star player. Whether it's Lebron or Wade or Bosh or Amare. Lebron isn't going to give you great perimeter shooting or interior defense so Cleveland got him guys like Mo Williams, Anthony Parker and Varejao for that. The fact that he's the best player in the league made up that his supporting cast wasn't as talented (but still a good fit). Bosh isn't going to give you great interior D or perimeter playmaking and the Raptors got him who? If Bosh was never good enough to build around then he should have been traded and the Raptors should have been tanking for someone who was. Or you can at least TRY to build around your star, even if he's not a superstar.

Quote:
Colangelo just kept accumulating random talent
That's my main issue with the recent past and future of this team. Don't blame the players. They are what they are. You can't expect Bosh to be as good as Lebron or Wade, Bargnani to be a good rebounder at this point, Calderon to play D, etc. etc. Blame the idiotic management who had no plan and seemingly no idea how to create a winning team.



Quote:
Wade, LeBron, Kobe, etc. have taken sub-par supporting casts a lot farther than that.
Lebron has but Kobe and Wade? After Shaq left both teams and Kobe/Wade were the only stars on their teams, they never made it past the 1st round on their own until they got legit help (Gasol).

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 11-02-2010 at 07:42 PM.
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Old 11-02-2010, 07:43 PM   #33
Doko
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
Lebron and Wade are the 2 best players in the NBA. I don't think anyone had those kinds of expectations for Bosh. That would be unreasonable. And I don't see today's Duncan (who IMO, is also still a better overall player than Bosh) doing much with the supporting case of the Raptors, as much of a fan of his game as I am. Parker and Ginobili are better than anyone on the Raptors and the Spurs haven't made it out of the 2nd round the last two years.

You want Bosh to be something that he doesn't have the talent to be. A superstar top player in the NBA. He's more of a top 15 guy. But since there was no way the Raptors would be able to get a player even of his caliber unless they tanked and got lucky in the draft, you still need to try to build around him properly. That was never done. The talent around Lebron wasn't anything great either in Cleveland. The difference there was that Lebron was/is, IMO, unquestionably the best player in the league and the players around him, while not too talented, were great complements for his style. Neither of which was true for Bosh's supporting cast other than the Ford/Parker/Garbo/Rasho lineup which fit-wise was solid.

So if you think Bosh was the problem then the only solution is to tank every year until you get a player better than him in the draft. That's the only way to get players of that caliber in today's NBA and talent wins in the NBA.


Lebron has but Kobe and Wade? After Shaq left both teams and Kobe/Wade were the only stars on their teams, they never made it past the 1st round on their own until they got legit help (Gasol).

We had this conversation many times in past two years, and the whole point as always is: is it really worth it building around Bosh, when basically in order to be succesfull you have to pair him up with a player better than him, or bring in 3/4 all-stars?
that's pretty damn hard to do.
Colangelo surely didn't built properly around Bosh, but even if he did, what would have been the outcome? perennial first round exits? a couple of second round exits at best?
maybe the whole idea of building around CB4 wasn't that good of an idea to begin with...
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:08 PM   #34
Qwyjibo
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

The problem is that to get a better player to build around, you have to suck and get a high draft pick. That's pretty much the only way in today's NBA. Especially for a team that isn't in LA, Chicago, New York or Miami. It's not feasible for a team to just do that until you find your Lebron or Durant in the draft. If you get a very good player, you should try to build around them properly and see what happens. I never got the feeling that Colangelo was doing this.

Will a team with Bosh as it's best player be a title contender year after year? Most likely no. But could they make one good run at it and be a team that's at least "in the conversation"? Absolutely, if management does their job well. It would've been nice if the Raptors had even one other All-Star in the past 4 years as a starting point. They didn't even have that. Hell, the closest thing they had to that was Jose Calderon from a couple years ago.


As for the initial rant of this thread, all valid points but what did you expect? This team has been called one of the worst in the NBA by most sources for a reason. I was fine with the loss last night. When facing another expected lottery team like the Kings, a loss isn't the worst thing in the world. The effort was there for the most part and I was entertained. The only things I'm looking for this year are clear signs of sustainable improvement from the players I think could have an impact down the road if/when the Raptors become respectable again (mainly Derozan and Ed Davis). It's only 3 games so far so not enough to make any conclusions yet. Derozan has a great 7.0 FTA per game, Bargnani at .594 TS%, Evans at an absolutely stupid (in a good way) 29.1 TRB%... all nice but come back to me after 25 games or so to see if it's still the case.

Last edited by Qwyjibo : 11-02-2010 at 08:14 PM.
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Old 11-02-2010, 08:13 PM   #35
Doko
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
The problem is that to get a better player to build around, you have to suck and get a high draft pick. That's pretty much the only way in today's NBA. Especially for a team that isn't in LA, Chicago, New York or Miami. It's not feasible for a team to just do that until you find your Lebron or Durant in the draft. If you get a very good player, you should try to build around them properly and see what happens. I never got the feeling that Colangelo was doing this.

Will a team with Bosh as it's best player be a title contender year after year? Most likely no. But could they make one good run at it and be a team that's at least "in the conversation"? Absolutely, if management does their job well. It would've been nice if the Raptors had even one other All-Star in the past 4 years as a starting point. They didn't even have that. Hell, the closest thing they had to that was Jose Calderon from a couple years ago.

I agree that they didn't do a good job at all at building around Bosh. I don't blame Bosh for the last years' failures, he played hard, he just wasn't able to carry the team.
Except for the 47 wins team, I think that probably the best team built around him was the one that we had in the second half of 2008-09 season, with Jose/AP/Marion/Bosh/Bargs. Unfortunately BC wasn't able to keep that together because Marion wanted out, then we pulled the trigger on Turkoglu, and that was what really screwed us IMO.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:46 PM   #36
FlªshGordon
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

I agree with Doko and Qwyjibo. You guys seem to be saying the exact same things, just using different points to do so. It comes down to management and how the management builds a team, not the coach or even the players' fault. And to win a 'ship it would definitely seem that the team has to have a guy of superstar quality on the team, not one of mere star quality, with the exception of Detroit in recent years.

Oh, and I don't consider an aging Shaq to be legit help for Wade.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:55 PM   #37
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qwyjibo
The problem is that to get a better player to build around, you have to suck and get a high draft pick. That's pretty much the only way in today's NBA. Especially for a team that isn't in LA, Chicago, New York or Miami. It's not feasible for a team to just do that until you find your Lebron or Durant in the draft. If you get a very good player, you should try to build around them properly and see what happens. I never got the feeling that Colangelo was doing this.

Will a team with Bosh as it's best player be a title contender year after year? Most likely no. But could they make one good run at it and be a team that's at least "in the conversation"? Absolutely, if management does their job well. It would've been nice if the Raptors had even one other All-Star in the past 4 years as a starting point. They didn't even have that. Hell, the closest thing they had to that was Jose Calderon from a couple years ago.


As for the initial rant of this thread, all valid points but what did you expect? This team has been called one of the worst in the NBA by most sources for a reason. I was fine with the loss last night. When facing another expected lottery team like the Kings, a loss isn't the worst thing in the world. The effort was there for the most part and I was entertained. The only things I'm looking for this year are clear signs of sustainable improvement from the players I think could have an impact down the road if/when the Raptors become respectable again (mainly Derozan and Ed Davis). It's only 3 games so far so not enough to make any conclusions yet. Derozan has a great 7.0 FTA per game, Bargnani at .594 TS%, Evans at an absolutely stupid (in a good way) 29.1 TRB%... all nice but come back to me after 25 games or so to see if it's still the case.

Agree with the bolded. To the talk about Triano - I really think the only hing he can be judged on this year is whther or not the team hustles and works hard. The players simply aren't good enough to put up a decent W-L record.

Fun stat: Going into this week's WC road trip, discounting games against the Clips, over the last 5 years, the Raps are 3-35 in the Pacific or Mountain time zones.

Chew on THAT for a minute.
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:09 PM   #38
bonez26
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

Sorry to rant guys just had to let my frustration blow. I'm tired of hearing every year how we've got this new idea or team philosophy etc and yet nothing ever works. We need a good GM to get talent through the draft and rebuild this roster the proper way. My expectations are not at all high I peg the Raps to get 25-30 wins pretty bad IMO. What I don't expect to see is an 18 point lead diminish for lack of proper judegement on the coaches call, players being lazy on defence and not rebounding, and some heart from our guys. That's all... didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers...lol

However by Season's end I hope we win the Harrison Barnes sweepstakes and then fire BC and his henchmen.
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Old 11-03-2010, 12:39 PM   #39
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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Originally Posted by FlªshGordon
I agree with Doko and Qwyjibo. You guys seem to be saying the exact same things, just using different points to do so. It comes down to management and how the management builds a team, not the coach or even the players' fault. And to win a 'ship it would definitely seem that the team has to have a guy of superstar quality on the team, not one of mere star quality, with the exception of Detroit in recent years.

Oh, and I don't consider an aging Shaq to be legit help for Wade.

it was enough for him to win a championship.
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Old 11-03-2010, 01:26 PM   #40
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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Originally Posted by bonez26
Sorry to rant guys just had to let my frustration blow. I'm tired of hearing every year how we've got this new idea or team philosophy etc and yet nothing ever works. We need a good GM to get talent through the draft and rebuild this roster the proper way. My expectations are not at all high I peg the Raps to get 25-30 wins pretty bad IMO. What I don't expect to see is an 18 point lead diminish for lack of proper judegement on the coaches call, players being lazy on defence and not rebounding, and some heart from our guys. That's all... didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers...lol

However by Season's end I hope we win the Harrison Barnes sweepstakes and then fire BC and his henchmen.

There are top ten teams that will lose double digit leads all year long. And if you heard any new ideas or believed in any new phantom philosophy that was going to add 20 wins to this team then you might be the only one who heard or believed any of that. We are not a playoff team this year, and we didn't make the playoffs last year.

If seeing an 18 point lead evaporate is reason to jump off a cliff, and fans from every team in the league will see this happen, you're eulogy could be written by a cell mate in the psychiatric hospital you belong in.
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:31 AM   #41
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

I get people want to go gaga over Reggie Evans' rebounding, but does nobody seem to care that this guy would play no more then 14 mins a night on any other team in the NBA. How is this our starting PF!!!! He has never played more then 23 mins a night. Why the F would a shit team like us play him for over 30!!! Only for such a moronic team like the Raptors would a 9th man be paraded as a starter. Only a terrible team would tolerate 28% FG and 36% FT. It's such a joke. We sign Amir for what, $7 mill per, and he played less then Joey Dorsey last night and David Anderson. Talk about ass backwards management with this team. I am actually becoming less of a fan of this franchise and that upsets me.
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:44 AM   #42
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I get people want to go gaga over Reggie Evans' rebounding, but does nobody seem to care that this guy would play no more then 14 mins a night on any other team in the NBA. How is this our starting PF!!!! He has never played more then 23 mins a night. Why the F would a shit team like us play him for over 30!!! Only for such a moronic team like the Raptors would a 9th man be paraded as a starter. Only a terrible team would tolerate 28% FG and 36% FT. It's such a joke. We sign Amir for what, $7 mill per, and he played less then Joey Dorsey last night and David Anderson. Talk about ass backwards management with this team. I am actually becoming less of a fan of this franchise and that upsets me.

Maybe because we didn't want to be the worst rebounding team in the league this year? Maybe because we wanted to improve upon last years worst defensive team in the league? Maybe because you actually aren't a fan of this franchise and like to make, uh, stupid coments?

This isin't the way to get MLSE to look at you for a future management position, cause you know I think you'd be ideal.
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Old 11-04-2010, 08:52 AM   #43
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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Originally Posted by b4ball
Maybe because we didn't want to be the worst rebounding team in the league this year? Maybe because we wanted to improve upon last years worst defensive team in the league? Maybe because you actually aren't a fan of this franchise and like to make, uh, stupid coments?

This isin't the way to get MLSE to look at you for a future management position, cause you know I think you'd be ideal.


You do realize that basically anything you post, people glance over and disregard right?
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:06 AM   #44
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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Originally Posted by RapsFan
You do realize that basically anything you post, people glance over and disregard right?

I suppose that would be expected from anybody who thought your posts where in the least insightful. If I have to read continual drivel from you, I’ll be happy to address your poor analysis and stupid coments.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:33 AM   #45
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Default Re: Tired of this Mismanagement

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I suppose that would be expected from anybody who thought your posts where in the least insightful. If I have to read continual drivel from you, I’ll be happy to address your poor analysis and stupid coments.

You are probably the least liked poster on this forum this side of beastnani. And at least that guy has personality.

You can't have a discussion so that is your problem. If anyone says anything remotely negative about your beloved Raps, you go off the deep end. You're the type of guy that calls out bad grammer on an internet message board. The best was when you did it with your own bad grammer. It's pitiful. Being a homer is so lame. Your delusional optimism would be received better if you were reaonable with your comments. On topic, our defense is still brutal with Evans, we're 1-3 losing to bad teams outside the the Jazz and our rebounding isn't that great. Evans wouldn't start on any other team, yet you see some red and purple lining to that and get defensive. Keep on trucking in your bubble. The rest of us will live in the real world and have grown up discussions.
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