Which players have been able to lead their team to a ship w/o a top 50 GOAT teammate?

[clayton]

kobe

Nope.

[All Net]

Too many people try to discredit Kobe. Dirk in the finals had plenty of help from Marion, Terry, Barea and Kidd. Chandler was terrific, yet people act like Kobe was carried to titles.

Agenda takes over for many.

[crosso√er]

Now, who is being ridiculous? If you're using all-star as a measuring stick, Duncan won in 05 with a one time all-star (Manu) and in 07 with a two time all-star (Parker) and a one time all-star (Manu).

What's ridiculous is using all-star as a measuring stick when Kidd and Robinson were waaaaaaaaay past their all-star years. A truer measuring stick is all-nba honors (takes out the popularity element) in the championship year which would leave Barry ('75), Jordan ('91), Hakeem ('94), Duncan (99, 03, 05, 07) and Dirk ('11).

LOL, at Kobe winning with less than Duncan and Dirk - he's only got the best frontline in the NBA. Duncan had a 20 year old (2nd year) Parker, and SJax and Manu (rookie) playing in their first playoffs as his 2nd, 3rd and 4th options.

Kobe has never won a championship with the best front-court, why do people keep insisting on saying that?

Bynum was crippled; Lamar & Pau alone does not constitute the best front-court. What has Pau achieved without Kobe, what has Odom achieved without Kobe? Kobe achieved a dynasty without both of them; but I can guess where that point is going right?

This forum is ridiculous towards Kobe. In 09' he played great in every series including the NBA finals. In 10'; he dominated yet again until LA faced Boston in a grueling seven game series. Despite him struggling scoring; he still didn't shoot much worse then Dirk. Difference being; Dirk is a big, and is expected to be more efficient then a volume scorer (playing shooting guard). Yet, when Dirk leads his team to a title; he's all the sudden a top three player (or to some) the best player in the league.

When Kobe wins back to back titles and leads his team to three straight final appearances; people try to overshadow that accomplishment by sugarcoating how great his teammates are. That's why I don't take this forum seriously. Every time I log on this forum, I see ten threads on the first page talking about Kobe. Basically every single one of them are agenda driven. If a fan creates a thread praising him; you have the same trolls coming in, accumulating 200+ replies basically belittling the guy every way possible.

The most intriguing observation is how Kobe & Dirk are treated. You have one guy, shooting 42%; getting a ton of contribution from his role players, and gets a ton of love. The other guy, struggled shooting (just like Dirk) but the table gets completely turned on him. Its these double standards that annoy the crap out of me.

As far as Kobe is concerned; he is the ONLY basketball player that have won back-to-back titles and led his team to three straight final appearances without having a top fifty player beside him.

No one ever mentions how terrible LA's back-court was during the run. Yeah Fish is a big game player and has made it count, but it's not like there's someone on those teams that could have relieved Kobe from ball-handling duties; setting up teammates or actually defend their man.

Basically Kobe won two titles with Gasol, Fisher, Ariza & Lamar (in 09') and Gasol, Artest, Lamar & injured Bynum.

Is it really that much more help then what Dirk & Duncan had during their title runs? Don't just look at the name on the jersey, actually look at how much their teammates contributed to the success. Lamar Odom & Pau Gasol BOTH struggled against Boston as well; people just tend to forget those little details and primarily shed light on how Kobe struggled. Conveniently ignoring how good he was against Orlando and basically every other series minus Boston in those two title runs.

Gasol couldn't even win a playoff game on a 50 win team; yet we really going to act like he was more valuable then Kobe from 08' to 10'?

Yeah, Duncan didn't have much help in 05'. It's Timmy, a legend in his own right. We all know it's easier to win titles being a dominant big man with little help then a dominant perimeter player with little help; just ask Jordan about his first eight years in the league.

Despite all that; name me a player without a top fifty player by his side who has ever won back-to-back titles and led his team to three straight final appearances?

Just learn to appreciate greatness; insecurity isn't healthy.

[caliman]

Take a look at the top 50 list. Nostalgia aside, Pau Gasol is superior to many of them... both more talented and a better resume.

No, he isn't. Gasol as a top 50 player all time is laughable.

[DMAVS41]

Kobe has never won a championship with the best front-court, why do people keep insisting on saying that?

Bynum was crippled; Lamar & Pau alone does not constitute the best front-court. What has Pau achieved without Kobe, what has Odom achieved without Kobe? Kobe achieved a dynasty without both of them; but I can guess where that point is going right?

This forum is ridiculous towards Kobe. In 09' he played great in every series including the NBA finals. In 10'; he dominated yet again until LA faced Boston in a grueling seven game series. Despite him struggling scoring; he still didn't shoot much worse then Dirk. Difference being; Dirk is a big, and is expected to be more efficient then a volume scorer (playing shooting guard). Yet, when Dirk leads his team to a title; he's all the sudden a top three player (or to some) the best player in the league.

When Kobe wins back to back titles and leads his team to three straight final appearances; people try to overshadow that accomplishment by sugarcoating how great his teammates are. That's why I don't take this forum seriously. Every time I log on this forum, I see ten threads on the first page talking about Kobe. Basically every single one of them are agenda driven. If a fan creates a thread praising him; you have the same trolls coming in, accumulating 200+ replies basically belittling the guy every way possible.

The most intriguing observation is how Kobe & Dirk are treated. You have one guy, shooting 42%; getting a ton of contribution from his role players, and gets a ton of love. The other guy, struggled shooting (just like Dirk) but the table gets completely turned on him. Its these double standards that annoy the crap out of me.

As far as Kobe is concerned; he is the ONLY basketball player that have won back-to-back titles and led his team to three straight final appearances without having a top fifty player beside him.

No one ever mentions how terrible LA's back-court was during the run. Yeah Fish is a big game player and has made it count, but it's not like there's someone on those teams that could have relieved Kobe from ball-handling duties; setting up teammates or actually defend their man.

Basically Kobe won two titles with Gasol, Fisher, Ariza & Lamar (in 09') and Gasol, Artest, Lamar & injured Bynum.

Is it really that much more help then what Dirk & Duncan had during their title runs? Don't just look at the name on the jersey, actually look at how much their teammates contributed to the success. Lamar Odom & Pau Gasol BOTH struggled against Boston as well; people just tend to forget those little details and primarily shed light on how Kobe struggled. Conveniently ignoring how good he was against Orlando and basically every other series minus Boston in those two title runs.

Gasol couldn't even win a playoff game on a 50 win team; yet we really going to act like he was more valuable then Kobe from 08' to 10'?

Yeah, Duncan didn't have much help in 05'. It's Timmy, a legend in his own right. We all know it's easier to win titles being a dominant big man with little help then a dominant perimeter player with little help; just ask Jordan about his first eight years in the league.

Despite all that; name me a player without a top fifty player by his side who has ever won back-to-back titles and led his team to three straight final appearances?

Just learn to appreciate greatness; insecurity isn't healthy.

I don't think anyone disputes Kobe's greatness. I do think that acting like the Lakers in 09 and 10 weren't stacked compared to the rest of the league is silly.

What other elite player had a team close to as good as Kobe those years? Lebron? nope
Wade? nope
Howard? maybe
Dirk? nope

The truth is that Kobe was one of the best players in the league and amongst the top 5 or so players, Kobe had by far the best team around him. That doesn't mean he isn't great.

I just don't like this notion of under rating Gasol and Odom and Artest and Ariza and Fisher and Bynum...etc.

And I hate the argument of:

"What did Gasol/Odom do without Kobe"....its silly. And even sillier when you act like Dirk was playing with great players. What had Kidd and Marion done without Dirk the last few years? What did Terry do without Dirk. What did Chandler do with Dirk? Peja?....etc. Can't have it both ways.

I don't really know the answer to the thread or what the criteria is. Jason Kidd is absolutely a top 50 player of all time so Dirk didn't win without one. Gasol is not a top 50 player....so Kobe did win without one.

However, everyone knows that Gasol is much better than Kidd right now and has been for a long time.

If you want to break it down to something you should use all nba teammates. Its not perfect, but its far better than all star or some weird top 50 thing....especially when it seems to me that people aren't considering primes.

Also, the reason Kobe and Dirk are held to different standards at times is because of their places in history. Kobe is getting compared to Duncan/Bird/Shaq/Hakeem. Those are some of the best players of all time. So when Kobe plays poorly, its more pronounced because of his company.

Dirk, on the other hand, is getting compared to guys like Malone and Barkley and KG and Robinson.....etc. Guys that aren't in the top 10 all time. Just the act of leading a team to the title helps Dirk out a lot in those comparisons. And of course, the main thing being that Dirk played on a huge underdog team this year. The mavs had no business winning. They were enormous dogs to even make it out of the 2nd round....hell, it was a toss up in round 1.

If you can't see the difference between the odds the Mavs had to overcome this year going through the blazers, lakers, thunder, and heat compared to what the Lakers had to overcome in 09 and 10.....then you are just simply extremely biased.

Double standards? I can't even imagine the hell that would break loose here if Kobe ever beat Lebron and Wade in the finals. Regarldess of how he played....ISH would have shut down for a month. And if he had played as clutch as Dirk and played sick? Again....I can't even imagine the shit the kobe stans like Chazzy would be throwing around.

[SCdac]

Are you guys really saying J-Kidd isn't top 50?

That's what I'm wondering. Jason Kidd is one of the best point guards I've ever seen play, and have watched many great point guards since getting into basketball. Even at his current age - he lead the Mavs handedly in assists and steals. He lead his own team to the Finals twice in his prime, which was a first for the Nets franchise. I'd consider him a top-50 player all time for sure.

[jlauber]

I don't hate Wilt because of Jlauber, I don't even hate him but I know many dislike him after all Jlaubers spamming.

I just think he gets overrated, like in this case, the guy played with 2 guys who are listed in the 50 greatest players thingy and suddenly he became a candidat for the topic, "Which players have been able to lead their team to a ship w/o a top 50 GOAT teammate?". I understand if someone can argue about Cunningham not actually deserving the spot but Hal Greer is a sure lock.

Or all the myths spread by Jlauber, the guy is was "world class volleyball player", he was world class when it came to track and field events, he could touch the top of the backboard easily, he slept with 20 000 women, he could bench like no one else, he broke someones foot when he dunked a ball on the guys foot so hard, he once dunked a basketball when two fully grown NBA players hang on his arms etc... Exaggerating a little is ok but come on..

MYTHS that I spread??? What a clown you are Dickwad.

I have posted the articles which claimed that Wilt was a world-class volleyball player, as well as a quote from Pat Powers who captained the USA volleyball team. So, no, that was not MY claim (NOR WILT's BTW...who, himself, only claimed to have played against the best players in the world.) I don't recall ever saying that Wilt was a world class track-and-field star, although I have claimed that he was a world-class ATHLETE. How can you argue that point when he tried out for the Chiefs in the mid-60's, and none other than Hank Stram claimed that he would he an all-pro NFL player and IMMEDIATELY offered him a LEGITIMATE contract? Or that Wilt was offered not one, but TWO title fights with Ali? And, of course, he was a HIGH JUMP champion in college (as well as participating in KU's triple-jump, long jump, 4x100 relay team, 440, 880, and shot put.

As far as touching the top of the backboard, none other than Sonny Hill claimed as witnessing it (and BTW, Russell claims to have had his eyes at rim level...and we KNOW that he was a WORLD-CLASS high-jumper.) We also had an article which credited Wilt with a FT line dunk (and without a full running start), AND, we KNOW that the NBA and NCAA banned the dunking of FT's BECAUSE of Wilt. BTW, Wilt was known to have dunked on a 12 ft rim, that not coincidently, happened to show up at KU in the 50's, when Wilt was attending school there.

Bench press strength? Just google Wilt's bench...you will find the internet PLASTERED with 500+ lb articles. And we KNOW that SI ran an article in 1964 which claimed that Wilt was benching 425 at that time...and that was long before he became a 300 lb behemoth later in his career. Not only that, but there is an eye-witness account of Wilt benching 465 lbs...at age 59.

In any case, I challenge you to find the video footage, or even a LEGITIMATE account that shows or claims that Wilt couldn't touch the top of the backboard when he was obviously attempting to do so; or couldn't bench press 500 lbs (or whatever) when he was attempting to max out.

And it was NOT Wilt who claimed to have broken the toe of a player with a dunk, but the ACTUAL player, himself (Johnny Kerr) who made that comment.

As for the 20,000 women...who really cares. It is irrelevant. We do KNOW (and has been substantiated by many of Wilt's contemporaries) that he was seen with MANY women.

So, when you dig up the actual footage that DISPUTES those claims, get back to me. I have always found it fascinating that with all of the supposed "myths" that abound on Wilt's amazing physical feats, that there has never been a LEGITIMATE source who has come forth and DISPUTED any of them.

BTW, how about these other "myths"...

Wilt being credited with a 100 pt game. Or supposedly averaging 50 ppg in a full season. Or averaging nearly 40 ppg over the course of his first seven seasons...COMBINED. Or having the ONLY FOUR 50-40 games (including a 78-43 game.) Or putting up 103 of the entire total of 131 30-30 games in NBA history. Or having 55 of the entire total of 61 40-30 games. Or having SIX of the 10 70+ point games in NBA history. Or 32 of the entire total of 62 60+ point games. Or having THREE 60+ point games on at least 70+ FG%, (and the highest FG% ever in a 60+ point game of 29-35, or .829.) Or grabbing 55 rebounds in one game (and outrebounding RUSSELL in that game, 55-19.) Or averaging 27+ rpg TWICE in full seasons. Or pulling down a playoff record of 41 rebounds (again, against Russell.) Or averaging 32 rpg in a playoff series (again, against Russell.) Or having two entire post-seasons of 29+ rpg (with a high of 30.2 rpg.) Or having a 30-31 post-season series (in seven games, and again, against Russell.) Or being the only center to have ever led the NBA in assists. Or leading the NBA in rebounding in 11 of his 14 seasons. Or putting up a 53-32-14 game on 24-29 shooting. Or having a 56-35 game five in a best-of-five playoff series. Or hanging a 50-35 elimination game on Russell. Or having the three highest "perfect" games in NBA history (15-15, 16-16, and 18-18.) Or making 35 straight FGAs. Or making 28-32 FTs in a game. Or blocking a KNOWN 23 shots in one game. Or having the ONLY 20-20-20 game in NBA history (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists.) Or having a playoff QUAD DOUBLE of 24-32-13-12 and again, against Russell. Or having the two highest FG% seasons in NBA history, and by far-and-away the biggest differentials against both the league average, and nearest competitor. Or putting up the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and on .625 shooting in a seven game Finals in '70.) Or having TEN 20-20 full seasons. Or SEVEN 30-20 full seasons. Or having FOUR 30-20 entire post-seasons (and EIGHT 20-20 post-seasons.) Or having a 21.7 ppg, 29.1 rpg, 9.2 apg, and .579 entire post-season. Or taking two teams to records of 68-13 and 69-13 and two dominating world titles. Or playing on a team that won 33 straight games. Yep, all of those "myths."

So, don't get "butthurt" when so MANY sources confirm these "myths." And, BTW, most all of them were NOT started by Chamberlain.

[jlauber]

Are you for real? Both Greer and Cunningham are on the "50 greatest players in NBA history", Wilt has nothing at all to do on that list. And as if that wasn't enough he had a Chet Walker on his team averaging 19 points per game that season.

Once again, Dickwad, you are way off. Did Wilt play with a good supporting cast? Sure he did. BUT, take a look at the 60-21 Celtics roster that season. SIX HOFers, and perhaps the DEEPEST roster in NBA history. TEN QUALITY players (six of whom averaged double figure scoring.) And yet, Wilt and his 68-13 Sixers just OBLITERATED that team in the ECF's. They narrowly missed SWEEPING that Celtic team (losing game four in Boston by a 121-117 margin.) My god, in game five the Sixers spotted Boston a 17 point lead late in the first period, but, by late in the 4th quarter, the 76ers lead by a 131-104 margin (a 44 point turnaround in a little over two quarters of play), en route to a 140-116 win...in a game in which Wilt outscored Russell 29-4 (and with 22 of them coming in the first half when the game was still in doubt); outshooting Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisting Russell, 13-7; and outrebounding Russell, 36-21.

Now, how many other "great" players were CONSISTENTLY OUTGUNNED by HOFers in virtually EVERY post-season, and by margins as high as 8-2??? Wilt faced the Celtic dynasty in ten of his 14 seasons, and was outgunned in HOFers by as much as 9-1 against them...and in EVERY post-season series against them. Then, he faced the Knicks on four occasions, and with those NY teams having anywhere between FOUR to SIX HOFers.

So, while Wilt had some quality rosters, he was also battling LOADED rosters EVERY season.

[Doranku]

I don't think anyone disputes Kobe's greatness. I do think that acting like the Lakers in 09 and 10 weren't stacked compared to the rest of the league is silly.

What other elite player had a team close to as good as Kobe those years? Lebron? nope
Wade? nope
Howard? maybe
Dirk? nope

The truth is that Kobe was one of the best players in the league and amongst the top 5 or so players, Kobe had by far the best team around him. That doesn't mean he isn't great.

I just don't like this notion of under rating Gasol and Odom and Artest and Ariza and Fisher and Bynum...etc.

And I hate the argument of:

"What did Gasol/Odom do without Kobe"....its silly. And even sillier when you act like Dirk was playing with great players. What had Kidd and Marion done without Dirk the last few years? What did Terry do without Dirk. What did Chandler do with Dirk? Peja?....etc. Can't have it both ways.

I don't really know the answer to the thread or what the criteria is. Jason Kidd is absolutely a top 50 player of all time so Dirk didn't win without one. Gasol is not a top 50 player....so Kobe did win without one.

However, everyone knows that Gasol is much better than Kidd right now and has been for a long time.

If you want to break it down to something you should use all nba teammates. Its not perfect, but its far better than all star or some weird top 50 thing....especially when it seems to me that people aren't considering primes.

Also, the reason Kobe and Dirk are held to different standards at times is because of their places in history. Kobe is getting compared to Duncan/Bird/Shaq/Hakeem. Those are some of the best players of all time. So when Kobe plays poorly, its more pronounced because of his company.

Dirk, on the other hand, is getting compared to guys like Malone and Barkley and KG and Robinson.....etc. Guys that aren't in the top 10 all time. Just the act of leading a team to the title helps Dirk out a lot in those comparisons. And of course, the main thing being that Dirk played on a huge underdog team this year. The mavs had no business winning. They were enormous dogs to even make it out of the 2nd round....hell, it was a toss up in round 1.

If you can't see the difference between the odds the Mavs had to overcome this year going through the blazers, lakers, thunder, and heat compared to what the Lakers had to overcome in 09 and 10.....then you are just simply extremely biased.

Double standards? I can't even imagine the hell that would break loose here if Kobe ever beat Lebron and Wade in the finals. Regarldess of how he played....ISH would have shut down for a month. And if he had played as clutch as Dirk and played sick? Again....I can't even imagine the shit the kobe stans like Chazzy would be throwing around.

Melo in '09 had a very solid/deep team. Even though the Rockets series went to 7, I think that was easily LA's biggest challenge that year. It required 3 amazing performances from Kobe to take that team out.

Not saying that team was cut and dry better than LA of course, but they were definitely a formidable foe and without great performances from Kobe (especially in games 3 and 6), LA could have easily lost that series.

[ShaqAttack3234]

Isn't Jason Kidd a top 50 player?

The whole winning with or without a top 50 player argument is kind of dumb. Alot of players win with players that are considered top 50 players but weren't playing at a top 50 of all-time level at the time. On the other hand, some players win with players that are not considered top 50 players but were playing at a top 50 all-time level at the time. You can argue that although Gasol, Pierce, and Dumars aren't considered top 50 players ever, they were playing that well when Kobe, KG, and Isiah won their titles. You can argue that although Dirk, Wade, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, Bird, and Kareem have always seem to have won titles playing with at least 1 other top 50 player, that top 50 player wasn't always playing at a top 50 level in each of those titles.

Exactly, this type of stuff is trivial to begin with and not an accurate way of evaluating how impressive a championship run was, but this especially has to be kept in mind.

[NuggetsFan]

This is getting rediculous; Kobe won two titles with Odom, Gasol and Ariza/Artest. Bynum was on one leg most of those runs, guy WON with less then Duncan and Dirk.

Parker, Robinson, Stephen Jackson, Manu, Terry, Kidd, Marion, Chandler,Barea...Lmao.

Kobe won with a three time all-star, think about that for a second.

Is it just me or does it make it obvious somebody's grasping at straws when they mention Barea?

[Duranthebest]

Dumars and Rodman are not top 50 anymore.

Paul Pierce isn't nor is Ray Allen.

Pretty simple explanation.

So Kevin Garnett was the undisputed best player while Pierce won finals mvp?

[ShaqAttack3234]

So Kevin Garnett was the undisputed best player while Pierce won finals mvp?

So by that logic, Duncan wasn't the undisputed best player on the 2007 Spurs, Magic wasn't the undisputed best player on the 1988 Lakers, Bird wasn't the undisputed best player on the 1981 Celtics and Kareem wasn't the undisputed best player on the 1980 Lakers?

Granted, KG and Pierce were closer in 2008 than those players, but KG was still clearly the best player on the 2008 Celtics.

One award isn't going to help your case.

KG in 2008
3rd in MVP voting
All-NBA First Team
Defensive Player Of the Year
All-Defensive First Team
Celtics leading scorer and rebounder during the Playoffs

To put that into perspective, Pierce was never All-NBA First Team in his career and was on the 3rd team in 2008, Pierce's highest finish in MVP voting was 7th, and he was 14th in 2008.

[millwad]

Once again, Dickwad, you are way off. Did Wilt play with a good supporting cast? Sure he did. BUT, take a look at the 60-21 Celtics roster that season. SIX HOFers, and perhaps the DEEPEST roster in NBA history. TEN QUALITY players (six of whom averaged double figure scoring.) And yet, Wilt and his 68-13 Sixers just OBLITERATED that team in the ECF's. They narrowly missed SWEEPING that Celtic team (losing game four in Boston by a 121-117 margin.) My god, in game five the Sixers spotted Boston a 17 point lead late in the first period, but, by late in the 4th quarter, the 76ers lead by a 131-104 margin (a 44 point turnaround in a little over two quarters of play), en route to a 140-116 win...in a game in which Wilt outscored Russell 29-4 (and with 22 of them coming in the first half when the game was still in doubt); outshooting Russell, 10-16 to 2-5; outassisting Russell, 13-7; and outrebounding Russell, 36-21.

Now, how many other "great" players were CONSISTENTLY OUTGUNNED by HOFers in virtually EVERY post-season, and by margins as high as 8-2??? Wilt faced the Celtic dynasty in ten of his 14 seasons, and was outgunned in HOFers by as much as 9-1 against them...and in EVERY post-season series against them. Then, he faced the Knicks on four occasions, and with those NY teams having anywhere between FOUR to SIX HOFers.

So, while Wilt had some quality rosters, he was also battling LOADED rosters EVERY season.

So freaking what? Read my post and read the topic, I don't give a crap about what teams he faced, he had two guys in the top 50 and even if someone would like to take Cunningham out of the top 50 you'll still have Greer who's a sure lock.

The topic says, "Which players have been able to lead their team to a ship w/o a top 50 GOAT teammate?", idiot, and Wilt never lead any team to a title without a top 50 player so he has nothing to do with that list..

[qrich]

Is it just me or does it make it obvious somebody's grasping at straws when they mention Barea?

Barea is the best point guard of all-time, where have you been. Magic, Isiah and even guys like Sam Cassell have nothing on him.