Worst franchise between Minnesota, Cleveland, or Detroit

[sixer6ad]

So frustrating to read these thoughts as a Cavs fan. People jump on CLE because even though hardly any of you have ever been here or at a Cavs game, we are the city to jump on when the word "worst" appears.

Trust RBA posts. He analyzes the drafts and knows. Thompson and waiters are not superstars, but have you looked at their performances vs their draft classes? There's no chance they were bad picks. They are simply not standout top 5 draft players; however, they are outplaying their peers in their draft classes.

We are totally underachieving as a team this year, but you are talking about a franchise with 17 playoff appearances. In the middle of a rough year, 17,000 show up yesterday afternoon to watch us play. When we were a bad franchise under Ted stepien, that number was 5,000. This is a bad team; this is not a bad franchise.

Come to a game. See the life in the area around the Q. Come to casino, go to dinner, and go to a game. This is hardly a bad franchise.

[DMAVS41]

Yes, let's contract one of the few markets that actually continues to turn out for the franchise even in the lean years. Smart.

Well, what's the point if you can't do anything with a guy like Lebron?

I mean...you get a top 8 player ever and he leaves.

I said I don't want them to move or be contracted, but at some point it goes beyond fans turning out.

[1manfastbreak]

So frustrating to read these thoughts as a Cavs fan. People jump on CLE because even though hardly any of you have ever been here or at a Cavs game, we are the city to jump on when the word "worst" appears.

Trust RBA posts. He analyzes the drafts and knows. Thompson and waiters are not superstars, but have you looked at their performances vs their draft classes? There's no chance they were bad picks. They are simply not standout top 5 draft players; however, they are outplaying their peers in their draft classes.

We are totally underachieving as a team this year, but you are talking about a franchise with 17 playoff appearances. In the middle of a rough year, 17,000 show up yesterday afternoon to watch us play. When we were a bad franchise under Ted stepien, that number was 5,000. This is a bad team; this is not a bad franchise.

Come to a game. See the life in the area around the Q. Come to casino, go to dinner, and go to a game. This is hardly a bad franchise.

just because there is fan support doesn't make it any less of a bad franchise. I mean if you can't win a championship with LeBron, then there really is no hope.

[RedBlackAttack]

Well, what's the point if you can't do anything with a guy like Lebron?

I mean...you get a top 8 player ever and he leaves.

I said I don't want them to move or be contracted, but at some point it goes beyond fans turning out.

"Can't do anything"...

Yes, the Cavs "did nothing" with James. Let's forget the fact that James was as much or more to blame for the Cavs bowing out against a very good Celtics team in 2010 than the front office or the other players. Let's also forget that he did basically the same thing the next year with a completely different franchise, playing with a beast version of Wade.

James was not a Top 8 player "ever" in Cleveland. Hell, I'm not sure he is right now. I'd have to compile my all-time list to be sure, but that seems high for a guy whose only been in the league for 10 years. But, after getting embarrassed by a Mavs team I would have favored the 2010 Cavs against, he was forced to go back to the drawing board. He changed his game and his approach and it showed. We didn't have this version of James in Cleveland.

In the vast majority of his years in Cleveland, James wasn't on the level where he was capable of leading a team to a championship. I'd say in 2009, he probably was. Maybe 2008, but then again he had a really rough series against the Celtics that year, too, up until Game 7. Definitely no year prior to that and not in 2010 when he essentially threw in the towel after the team went up 2-1, crushing the Celtics in Boston.


But, this discussion really shouldn't be just about James. That's the kind of slap in the face we constantly have to deal with in Cleveland. Everything always boils down to LeBron James... as if the Cavs didn't exist before he arrived.

In fact, I thought our teams in the late-80s and early-90s were better than those James teams. They just happened to be winning 50+ games in an absolutely stacked Eastern Conference, with the greatest player of all-time, the Bad Boys and Bird's Celtics roaming around.

This idea that the Cavs were only good in the James years and a joke otherwise... it's nonsense.

The Cavs have made the playoffs 14 times in the last 26 years. James was a part of just five of those teams.

So, since 1987, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54-percent of the time. I'm not sure where that puts them league-wide over the same span, but I'm going to assume it wouldn't be near the bottom tier.

We aren't just talking about teams barely sneaking in, either. They won 54, 57 and 57 games in seasons in the late-80s, early-90s.


As always, it's a "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Because the current second youngest roster in the NBA hasn't started competing for championships as soon as some people would like, the team should be contracted.

The Cavs also may be the only franchise in NBA history who get constantly berated for having the misfortune of drafting a great player. Most franchises would be able to celebrate 60+ win seasons and Finals/ECF appearances. Instead, people laugh at the Cavs for it.

[RedBlackAttack]

So frustrating to read these thoughts as a Cavs fan. People jump on CLE because even though hardly any of you have ever been here or at a Cavs game, we are the city to jump on when the word "worst" appears.

Trust RBA posts. He analyzes the drafts and knows. Thompson and waiters are not superstars, but have you looked at their performances vs their draft classes? There's no chance they were bad picks. They are simply not standout top 5 draft players; however, they are outplaying their peers in their draft classes.

We are totally underachieving as a team this year, but you are talking about a franchise with 17 playoff appearances. In the middle of a rough year, 17,000 show up yesterday afternoon to watch us play. When we were a bad franchise under Ted stepien, that number was 5,000. This is a bad team; this is not a bad franchise.

Come to a game. See the life in the area around the Q. Come to casino, go to dinner, and go to a game. This is hardly a bad franchise.

Pretty much agree with everything you have to say, but I'm not sure this team is underachieving anymore. There was a time when we were on pace for 25 wins where there's no doubt, I would have agreed with you.

But, we've got 30 wins now and it looks likely that number will reach at least 34 (probably higher). I think expectations were just a little too high for a team with a completely new system, coach and a roster chalk full of guys 22 years old or under.

That is generally not a recipe for 40+ win seasons. The 30-35 range seems more appropriate and that is where we're headed.

[DMAVS41]

"Can't do anything"...

Yes, the Cavs "did nothing" with James. Let's forget the fact that James was as much or more to blame for the Cavs bowing out against a very good Celtics team in 2010 than the front office or the other players. Let's also forget that he did basically the same thing the next year with a completely different franchise, playing with a beast version of Wade.

James was not a Top 8 player "ever" in Cleveland. Hell, I'm not sure he is right now. I'd have to compile my all-time list to be sure, but that seems high for a guy whose only been in the league for 10 years.

In the vast majority of his years in Cleveland, James wasn't on the level where he was capable of leading a team to a championship. I'd say in 2009, he probably was. Maybe 2008, but then again he had a really rough series against the Celtics that year, too, up until Game 7. Definitely no year prior to that and not in 2010 when he essentially threw in the towel after the team went up 2-1, crushing the Celtics in Boston.


But, this discussion really shouldn't be just about James. That's the kind of slap in the face we constantly have to deal with in Cleveland. Everything always boils down to LeBron James... as if the Cavs didn't exist before he arrived.

In fact, I thought our teams in the late-80s and early-90s were better than those James teams. They just happened to be winning 50+ games in an absolutely stacked Eastern Conference.

But, this idea that the Cavs were only good in the James years and a joke otherwise... it's nonsense.

The Cavs have made the playoffs 14 times in the last 26 years. James was a part of just five of those teams.

So, since 1987, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54-percent of the time. I'm not sure where that's puts them league-wide over the same span, but I'm going to assume it wouldn't be near the bottom tier.

We aren't just talking about teams barely sneaking in, either. They won 54, 57 and 57 games in seasons in the late-80s, early-90s.


As always, it's a "what have you done for me lately" crowd. Because the current second youngest roster in the NBA hasn't started competing for championships as soon as some people would like, the team should be contracted.

The Cavs also may be the only franchise in NBA history who get constantly berated for having the misfortune of drafting a great player. Most franchises would be able to celebrate 60+ win seasons and Finals/ECF appearances. Instead, people laugh at the Cavs for it.

We can make it top 10 or top 12...or whatever you like. That wasn't the point of my comment.

My point was not even the 7 years they had him. It's that they lost him...and that they didn't put shit around him during his time there.

It's just the truth dude. He gave you guys 7 years and you failed him. Lebron exceeded expectations dramatically...He was even better than advertised and was an elite player in the league as a 21 year old.

And now it's just more of the same. Either Kyrie is great and you aren't putting him in the right situation to succeed...or he isn't...and you guys have missed on more draft picks.

And I actually have been to Cleveland...so I say this with experience of going to a few games over the years unlike the other guy thinks...

And I like Cleveland a lot, but we all know that rich black basketball players are not going to go there over a lot of other teams. So you have to build through the draft...and that is just hard.

It's not like I'm saying the Cavs are the only bad franchise. The Wolves are horrendous. What's the point of them? They didn't give KG shit to work with...never made the finals with him. Now they've had Love for years and they can't even make the ****ing playoffs. What's the ****ing point? Even when teams like the Wolves and Cavs strike NBA gold by lucking into all time great players...they haven't done shit with it.

That is the point of fans. That is all.

I don't actually think Cleveland will be contracted, and I don't want great fans like yourself to have to deal with that, but the league would be a lot better off getting rid of like 4 or 5 teams...and putting a team in Vegas and or Seattle.

Is what it is...

[RedBlackAttack]

We can make it top 10 or top 12...or whatever you like. That wasn't the point of my comment.

My point was not even the 7 years they had him. It's that they lost him...and that they didn't put shit around him during his time there.

It's just the truth dude. He gave you guys 7 years and you failed him. Lebron exceeded expectations dramatically...He was even better than advertised and was an elite player in the league as a 21 year old.

And now it's just more of the same. Either Kyrie is great and you aren't putting him in the right situation to succeed...or he isn't...and you guys have missed on more draft picks.

And I actually have been to Cleveland...so I say this with experience of going to a few games over the years unlike the other guy thinks...

And I like Cleveland a lot, but we all know that rich black basketball players are not going to go there over a lot of other teams. So you have to build through the draft...and that is just hard.

It's not like I'm saying the Cavs are the only bad franchise. The Wolves are horrendous. What's the point of them? They didn't give KG shit to work with...never made the finals with him. Now they've had Love for years and they can't even make the ****ing playoffs. What's the ****ing point? Even when teams like the Wolves and Cavs strike NBA gold by lucking into all time great players...they haven't done shit with it.

That is the point of fans. That is all.

I don't actually think Cleveland will be contracted, and I don't want great fans like yourself to have to deal with that, but the league would be a lot better off getting rid of like 4 or 5 teams...and putting a team in Vegas and or Seattle.

Is what it is...

I just completely disagree with your whole characterization of the Cavs "failing LeBron." He chose to leave to play with another top 3 player at the time and an elite PF. We were never going to be able to offer James that, even if every move was the perfect one.

If that's what he wanted, which apparently was the case, he was always going to leave. I do believe that, btw. That was always his plan.


As for Kyrie... he was freaking 21 years old this year and the team is still fighting for a spot in the playoffs. What the hell were you guys expecting from a team this young? Is going from 23 wins to 35 wins really that huge of a letdown, especially considering all the injuries the team has endured?

More of the same? I just don't understand where you're coming from.


Lastly, here's the disconnect between your apparent look at who should be contracted and who I think should be the first teams contracted... you're basing it on franchise decisions, success, etc.

To me, that should never even enter into the conversation. The city where the team plays cannot control what the front office does. All they can do is support the team.

Cleveland is among the league's best in this area. Places like Atlanta who have playoff caliber teams and still play to empty arenas? Those are the first places that should be contracted.


I'm also going to say this again... for everyone calling the Cavs "historically bad franchise," there is no comparison between the really historically bad franchises and the Cavaliers.

Over the last 25 years, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54% of the time.

Over the same period, the Wizards, Warriors and Clippers are at 23%. The Kings are at 35%. The Nets 42%, Bucks 46%, Pelicans/Hornets 48%, Sixers 50%, etc...

Since coming into the league 25 years ago, the Timberwolves have made the playoffs just 33% of the time. Bobcats are at 10%. Raps are 26%, Grizz 32%, etc.

The numbers just don't support the argument. The Cavs actually have a pretty strong history of putting out consistently quality teams.

[BrownEye007]

If they were all good picks then the Cavs wouldn't still be a lottery team.

If the Cavs had picked Jonas Valanciunas, Harrison Barnes, and victor Oladipo like everybody seems to think they should have do you think they'd be a playoff team right now? I don't.

[BrownEye007]

We can make it top 10 or top 12...or whatever you like. That wasn't the point of my comment.

My point was not even the 7 years they had him. It's that they lost him...and that they didn't put shit around him during his time there.

It's just the truth dude. He gave you guys 7 years and you failed him. Lebron exceeded expectations dramatically...He was even better than advertised and was an elite player in the league as a 21 year old.

And now it's just more of the same. Either Kyrie is great and you aren't putting him in the right situation to succeed...or he isn't...and you guys have missed on more draft picks.

And I actually have been to Cleveland...so I say this with experience of going to a few games over the years unlike the other guy thinks...

And I like Cleveland a lot, but we all know that rich black basketball players are not going to go there over a lot of other teams. So you have to build through the draft...and that is just hard.

It's not like I'm saying the Cavs are the only bad franchise. The Wolves are horrendous. What's the point of them? They didn't give KG shit to work with...never made the finals with him. Now they've had Love for years and they can't even make the ****ing playoffs. What's the ****ing point? Even when teams like the Wolves and Cavs strike NBA gold by lucking into all time great players...they haven't done shit with it.

That is the point of fans. That is all.

I don't actually think Cleveland will be contracted, and I don't want great fans like yourself to have to deal with that, but the league would be a lot better off getting rid of like 4 or 5 teams...and putting a team in Vegas and or Seattle.

Is what it is...

You do realize that if you were to get rid of the worst franchises currently somebody else would just become the worst right? It's not like bad franchises will stop existing and everybody wins every season. Even if you got rid of 5 teams there would still be AT LEAST 5 teams that don't win a championship over a 20 year period. Did you know that Michael Jordan didn't win his first championship till he was 28? Well Lebron left Cleveland at 25. I guess the Bulls are a terrible franchise too because they didn't win with mj For even more seasons than the Cavs didn't win with lebron.

[Draz]

Definitely not Detroit. Rings in the past. They have a brighter future. I'll say Minny

[LBJMVP]

they still cant figure at drafting players. detroit problems is at free agent.

why do people keep saying this

kyrie, thompson, and waiters were all really solid picks. the jury is still out on bennet.

we havent made a bad pick yet though and people keep posting this shit as if we have busted on every single pick we take.

[DMAVS41]

I just completely disagree with your whole characterization of the Cavs "failing LeBron." He chose to leave to play with another top 3 player at the time and an elite PF. We were never going to be able to offer James that, even if every move was the perfect one.

If that's what he wanted, which apparently was the case, he was always going to leave. I do believe that, btw. That was always his plan.


As for Kyrie... he was freaking 21 years old this year and the team is still fighting for a spot in the playoffs. What the hell were you guys expecting from a team this young? Is going from 23 wins to 35 wins really that huge of a letdown, especially considering all the injuries the team has endured?

More of the same? I just don't understand where you're coming from.


Lastly, here's the disconnect between your apparent look at who should be contracted and who I think should be the first teams contracted... you're basing it on franchise decisions, success, etc.

To me, that should never even enter into the conversation. The city where the team plays cannot control what the front office does. All they can do is support the team.

Cleveland is among the league's best in this area. Places like Atlanta who have playoff caliber teams and still play to empty arenas? Those are the first places that should be contracted.


I'm also going to say this again... for everyone calling the Cavs "historically bad franchise," there is no comparison between the really historically bad franchises and the Cavaliers.

Over the last 25 years, the Cavs have made the playoffs 54% of the time.

Over the same period, the Wizards, Warriors and Clippers are at 23%. The Kings are at 35%. The Nets 42%, Bucks 46%, Pelicans/Hornets 48%, Sixers 50%, etc...

Since coming into the league 25 years ago, the Timberwolves have made the playoffs just 33% of the time. Bobcats are at 10%. Raps are 26%, Grizz 32%, etc.

The numbers just don't support the argument. The Cavs actually have a pretty strong history of putting out consistently quality teams.

Well, we've been over this before...when Mo Williams is the best player you get your star in 7 years...that is failing. You clearly have much lower expectations...and that is fine, but again...that is why you guys lost Lebron. You can blame Lebron all you want...and say he needed to play with a top 3 player, but I don't buy that. I think Lebron was sick of playing for a franchise that hadn't given him shit historically in 7 years...and he wanted to go down as one of the best ever...and the Cavs aren't helping with that.

I have no problem with the Cavs this year. I'm saying that if Kyrie leaves. Again, IF Kyrie leaves...it's another problem for the Cavs.

That is the point I think you are ignoring. We are asking what scenario leads to the Cavs winning a title or at least remaining relevant for long stretches? It's clearly not lucking into a top "whatever number you pick" player of all time in Lebron.

All those other teams you bring up. Totally agree, but I took the OP more about which franchise has been the worst of this era. Also, a lot of those franchises didn't luck into Lebron and then lose him.

You obviously glossed over my criticism of the Timberwolves as well.

[no pun intended]

[DMAVS41]

You do realize that if you were to get rid of the worst franchises currently somebody else would just become the worst right? It's not like bad franchises will stop existing and everybody wins every season. Even if you got rid of 5 teams there would still be AT LEAST 5 teams that don't win a championship over a 20 year period. Did you know that Michael Jordan didn't win his first championship till he was 28? Well Lebron left Cleveland at 25. I guess the Bulls are a terrible franchise too because they didn't win with mj For even more seasons than the Cavs didn't win with lebron.

You are misunderstanding the argument. The Bulls did enough to keep Jordan around and ultimately built a strong team with a great future.

What the **** was the future of the Cavs post 2010? The future looked bleak because the Cavs mismanaged the entire situation from day 1.

And part of that is because they had shit decision makers...and the other harsh reality is that modern NBA players don't want to play in Cleveland if given choices. Just the truth...

[AnaheimLakers24]

magic.