What do you think are the top criteria, in order, for the GOAT list?

[toxicxr6]

where you being for the past 8 years or so? Let me guess, hating Kobe....

Your the one bringing up shaqs threepeat to prop up Kobe..

[PickernRoller]

I brought Duncan and Kobe up because they are a perfect example to highlight the nonsense in your repeating argument. Both have the exact same number of championships. One repeated twice (well, three times technically), the other didn't. But the latter won over a 15 year period, the other over 10 years.

Lets look at the simple picture here...

One player got to 4 Finals in a 10 Year stretch. 4 sparse championship runs and won 4. Then, in the twilight of his career added a repeat Final appearance, winning one ring, 1 of 2.

One player got to 7 Finals in a 10 year stretch. Said player 3-peated in Final appearances twice, 3-peating in rings, and repeating in rings, 3 of 3 and 2 0f 3. Said player had a sparse championship run in between 3-peats (2004, 0-1).

That's all there is to it. You can make a case of longevity's value but you will also have to make a strong case for sustained dominance over a "shorter" period of time and balance both if you're going to appear to be at the very least objective. Not to mention the context lost, like team health, player injuries etc (which has plagued the Lakers since 2011 and is a theme for Kobe's twilight).

In short, the nonsense here is trying to prop up longevity while looking the other way at other things to balance the sheet. I've no problem with longevity, high on my list, but you also have to objectively look at other things in play.

A recap at my criteria anyway:

#1 Rings and Finals MVP
---subset: Repeats and 3-peats. Very important.

3 rings in a three-peat > 3 sparse championship rings. Likewise for FMVP etc.

#2 Eye Test
---- Best player in the league, dominance, no empty stats.
#3 Longevity
---- Sustained dominance at the highest level.
---- All-star selections
---- Final appearances

[PickernRoller]

Your the one bringing up shaqs threepeat to prop up Kobe..

Kobe wasn't a Laker in 00-02? Didn't knew that.....

[toxicxr6]

Kobe wasn't a Laker in 00-02? Didn't knew that.....

He was but his weight on those rings has no more than Duncan did in 2014... That's it

In the end
5/3/2>5/2/1 and that's factual

[PickernRoller]

He was but his weight on those rings has no more than Duncan did in 2014... That's it

In the end
5/3/2>5/2/1 and that's factual

I said 8 years, not 3. Learn to count.

[zizozain]

metality is #1

playoffs MVP is # 2


the most important stage of the NBA season

[scandisk_]

Longevity is the only criteria that's lacking in MJ's resume, OTH KAJ is god-tier on that. While having insane stats, impact, peak-play, and is well-decorated with accolades as well. Not to mention being dominant since HS.

Lock in no.2 easily with a great case for the GOAT title.

[DaHeezy]

So you are not going to give extra credit to a guy like Hakeem who lifted his game in the playoffs? Or hamper Lebron in 2011 when he clearly got afraid of the moment and deferred? These guys aren't robots. You write your own legacy in the playoffs.

What's with asking an opinion then criticizing it if you don't agree?

And TEAMS write their legacies in the playoffs.

[JellyBean]

Great question. For me, some of the things that I look at are:

1). Leadership: Kobe and Tim Duncan lead in different ways, just to use them as examples. Neither is wrong in their leadership style. Magic was a leader and he was a vocal leader. Moses Malone lead by example. He didn't say much. His actions did the talking. Same with Dr. J. The thing that I am considering when it comes to leadership is, on the floor or in the huddle during a timeout. When the coach stops talking, who is that one player (or two) that vocally or through their actions on the court, sets the tone for the team in the winning or losing moments.


2). Player Efficiency Rating: Pretty clear. This is another area that I consider when looking at a players criteria to be on the GOAT list.

3). Team Performance Relative to Expectations: This is my favorite. If you were on a stacked team, meaning you had 1 or more all-star players on your team, were you able to make it to the playoffs?

4). Individual Playoff Performance: Sure you will have games where you struggle. It is human nature to have a bad game. But for me, I am looking at many things. Were you a force on offense? If you were struggled on offense, did you help with rebounding, defense, making an extra pass?

5). Crunch-Time Performance/Presence: You dont' have to hit the game winning shot all the time. Crunch-Time is also about being so good that we you create looks for your teammates. Things like that.

6). Skill Level: Are you that great player on the downward slope of your career compared to a young player with an ego.

7). Basketball IQ: Knowing what the heck you are doing while on the court. Are you making the extra pass? Do you know where to rotate on help defense? Things of that nature.

8). Defensive Performance/Presence: Basically were you able to play both ends of the floor. You don't have to be a defensive stopper. But were you able to help your team on the defensive end or did you disappear?

9). Playground Mindset: To borrow a Bill Simmons phrase, "Would I want this guy in the foxhole with me in a battle?"

10). Player Performance Relative to Draft position and Expectations: Did this guy play to his potential or did exceed expectations.

[kunk75]

for me its stats both off/def and PER, obviously has to be best ever at the respective position, rings vs opportunities (meaning in a situation where he could have realistically led a team to the championship), needs a peak of at least 7 years.