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Old 03-20-2011, 12:35 AM   #61
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heat007
That a very good way of explaining it.

although when on a roll, or in key playoff games, the variety in which Wade scores doesn't look human. More like Super-Human.

James is more robotic.



James worst enemy is his mind. he lets his past failures get the best. He's the most well rounded player that this league has ever seen without a doubt but that "it" factor is the lack of ferocity when he's challenged by formidable opponents and the game is on the line. his body language changes, his decision making is affected and he's not the same player that he is when facing inferior competition. I can confidently say that i've never seen that in wade. When we played miami last year Dwyane Wade gave us the business he never quit but he just simply couldn't do it by himself(as noone can). I was so dissapointed in LeBron James when he quit last year i was on the verge of becoming a fan, but that sight left a bitter taste in my mouth. LeBron may well be the better player in the regular season, but the Heat will only go as far as Dwyane Wade takes them come playoff he will be the one that has to take and make the big time buckets when the heat play big time teams because James has yet to prove that he's up to the task
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:15 AM   #62
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrong
Lots of stereotypes about both players being perpetuated in this thread. No, LeBron isn't all athleticism and no skill. And, no, Wade doesn't just gamble on defense and jump into people and fall down on offense.

The thing that has separated James this year is his perimeter shot. I've never seen him shoot like this, and that's ultimately why I give them the nod. He's also shooting FTs slightly better and shoots 3s a bit better.

As far as passing, James is better due to height, but, people, please remember that Wade's career apg prior to playing with LeBron was within a half an assist of James's. His assists are down this year because he plays off the ball.

Rebounding-- James is better again for an obvious reason. However, Wade is a better offensive rebounder.

Scoring is tough, probably a push. Wade has the more versatile repertoire and is the more instinctive scorer, but LeBron is a better finisher and now he's combining that with his ability to score from outside.

Wade is the better ball-handler and penetrator. Nobody breaks down defenses like Wade.

Defense is also probably a push. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Wade is vulnerable to the crossover. LeBron is vulnerable to the blow-by. Both recover and contest extremely well. Wade plays better post defense. LeBron plays better team defense. They are about even on faceup man D. Wade plays better help D and is a better pure shotblocker, but he's more prone to lapses and over-helping.

Wade is better in the post and has better overall footwork and fundamentals....

LeBron is better at elevating average talent than Wade. However, Wade has shown signs through his career that he may be a better scoring option in the playoffs against physical defenses.

Prior to this year and his string of misses, I would be more comfortable with LeBron taking the last shot than Wade. Early in his career, Wade was extremely clutch, but for several years then he was not. However, with the game in the balance and 5:00 to play, I would want the ball in Wade's hands. In my opinion, he's the better closer.

Both James and Wade are efficiency machines. However, James is marginally more efficicent and historically takes better care of the ball relative to the volume of plays that each make.

Both have great intangibles but Wade has a better feel for the rhythm and flow of a game-- when to play within it and when to take-over. His offensive game is also less disruptive to the flow of team offense because he attacks or makes his move quickly. LeBron's penchant for ball-stopping is not made-up. It happens, and sometimes it hurts the team.

....Overall, I agree with the assessment that Wade is the moderately more skilled offensive player, but LeBron's athleticism negates that edge. With defense being about equal, in the past, Wade's history as a playoff performer might have led me to give him the edge. But, as I said what ultimately pushes James over the top for me now is his jumpshot. I haven't seen this from him before...

Damn good post and I agree on nearly all accounts. Having a vested interest in all of James' previous playoff runs, I have begun to question whether or not his style of running an offense and attacking -- while phenomenal -- will always be a problem for teammates (especially talented ones that need the ball) when things tighten up and slow down in the playoffs.

I do think that Wade's skillset is more conducive to a lead a more conventional championship-level team. That doesn't necessarily make him better (I also give James the edge in terms of player-to-player comparison), but it may make him the easier centerpiece to build a great team around.

James' skillset is so unique, I feel like he needs a pretty unique supporting cast. How Wade, Bosh, Miller, etc fit into that... Well, we'll find out. Or, whether or not Wade begins to take over a bit more and run the offense more in the playoffs... Well, we'll find that out, too.

I don't think there is much of a gap between these two players and I've been saying that for years. I do think James is the most dominant, 'best' player in the NBA and has been since around 2006... But, I also think that Wade is comfortably No. 2 and has also been for quite some time.

This is a debate worth having, certainly. There is no clear-cut answer... or, it isn't as clear-cut as some may like you to believe.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:25 AM   #63
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christofire
James worst enemy is his mind. he lets his past failures get the best. He's the most well rounded player that this league has ever seen without a doubt but that "it" factor is the lack of ferocity when he's challenged by formidable opponents and the game is on the line. his body language changes, his decision making is affected and he's not the same player that he is when facing inferior competition. I can confidently say that i've never seen that in wade. When we played miami last year Dwyane Wade gave us the business he never quit but he just simply couldn't do it by himself(as noone can). I was so dissapointed in LeBron James when he quit last year i was on the verge of becoming a fan, but that sight left a bitter taste in my mouth. LeBron may well be the better player in the regular season, but the Heat will only go as far as Dwyane Wade takes them come playoff he will be the one that has to take and make the big time buckets when the heat play big time teams because James has yet to prove that he's up to the task

I agree that James' intestinal fortitude when going against teams that *may* be better than his and when the chips are down is in question. I really thought that he overcame his penchant for really, really bad games against elite teams in the playoffs after that superb individual run in 2009, but last year showed me otherwise... and it did appear that he was mentally beaten at a point in the series when the Cavaliers still had a legitimate shot to win the series.

I do object to your assigning James the most well-rounded player that the league has ever seen. He is very good in all of the major facets when you look at things in a very broad sense... scoring, passing, rebounding, efficiency and defense.

But, within those broad categories, there are subcategories in which he lacks significantly... And those limitations have cost him in the past. Let's look at scoring, for example... James can fill it up, obviously. His sheer height and mass combined with superb athleticism, reflexes, body control, etc. make him very difficult to stop when he is focused on scoring. However, he does need the ball in his hands -- most of the time -- to set up his own shot.

Most of his slashes, mid-range game and even 3-point attempts come off of the dribble. In order for me to look at him as a historically versatile scorer, he needs to add more variety to his game (and that would certainly help him in playoff settings when the game changes)... working off the ball, become consistent in his spot-up jumper, working with his back to the basket, etc.

I do think that a lot of his struggles in the playoffs against good defensive teams have a direct correlation to him not being able to attack from a variety of spots on the floor and in a variety of ways. He is still tough to stop, even when he is predictable, but it just feels like there is more potential in his all-around offensive game.

Last edited by RedBlackAttack : 03-20-2011 at 01:29 AM.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:49 AM   #64
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

I agree with jrong in Wade feeling the flow better within a game and knowing when to take over, step back for a few minutes, then make his impact.

Wade is more patient that way and just has a different level of basketball IQ. He can ambush with the best who ever lived. In that Laker game you just saw how seamlessly Wade took over that game. He just slowly and slowly played better and better in the 4th (defensively as well), and then all of a sudden POW! He'll hit you with a right hook, and then knows to make another play very quickly while the opponent is asleep. Hitting you with a right uppercut immediately following. He did it in the Portland OT game too and other games. But has been better at that in his career.

Wade just has that feel for the game and has such a knack for the proper timing within a game. This attribute goes unnoticed. It's part of what made Jordan so awesome. He was complete and was very patient when he needed to be and seized his opportunities fully when they presented themselves, and knew when to pounce. James is too impatient in that way.

To go further with Wade's penetration and how he's better there. He's much better with hesitant moves, body fakes, pump fakes. And he's so good in making you think he's going to utilize a screen and then efffortlessly goes away from it. By the time he's by the rim opposing defenders just wisp and accept the blocking foul not bothering to take the step for the charge as he goes around them because he's one step ahead physically and with his mind (bball IQ).

I also think Wade is a better rebounder. If Wade was 6'8" like James he'd have much higher rebound averages. But naturally, he is a better rebounder. He's excellent in traffic in low post and does such a great job against bigger men in traffic. He also does a better job than james in tracking the ball in the air and judging where it's going to bounce off of and land. And does a better job positioning himself to that spot quickly. Wade is averaging 7 boards a game this year at 6'4".

He gets a lot of his rebounds down low, in the low post against bigger men,, and wins !! Like this rebound here which he does often against bigger people. Jordan was the same with his instinctual rebounding down low for a guard-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSpvx6Gvzc8
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:51 AM   #65
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

When Lebron is Right(Physically and Mentally) there is no question he is the best. My biggest pet peeve with him is if something is bothering him on or off the court "Mentally" he gives in and seems disinterested and just goes through the motions. Also if he is off he lets it get into his head. For example if he starts out a gm missing his shot or in a bad rhythm he will defer instead of keep on attacking. I also think he let missing all those gm winners get in his head feeling the pressure and is the reason why he missed like 4 or 5 in a 2 week stretch. Those are my knocks on him mainly of course he can get better at a couple things but the good far outweigh the bad.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:57 AM   #66
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heat007
I also think Wade is a better rebounder. If Wade was 6'8" like James he'd have much higher rebound averages.
I never understood this kind of argument. If Muggsy Bogues had been 7-foot, maybe he would have broken all of Wilt's records... but he wasn't, so that is a strawman argument. Wade is a good rebounder, but James is better, overall, in that aspect of the game. No qualifications about height really need to be made.

We are judging the players, here... Not the players if they were taller and/or shorter.
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Old 03-20-2011, 01:59 AM   #67
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

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Originally Posted by Christofire
James worst enemy is his mind. he lets his past failures get the best. He's the most well rounded player that this league has ever seen without a doubt

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Old 03-20-2011, 02:13 AM   #68
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heat007
I agree with jrong in Wade feeling the flow better within a game and knowing when to take over, step back for a few minutes, then make his impact.

Wade is more patient that way and just has a different level of basketball IQ. He can ambush with the best who ever lived. In that Laker game you just saw how seamlessly Wade took over that game. He just slowly and slowly played better and better in the 4th (defensively as well), and then all of a sudden POW! He'll hit you with a right hook, and then knows to make another play very quickly while the opponent is asleep. Hitting you with a right uppercut immediately following. He did it in the Portland OT game too and other games. But has been better at that in his career.

Wade just has that feel for the game and has such a knack for the proper timing within a game. This attribute goes unnoticed. It's part of what made Jordan so awesome. He was complete and was very patient when he needed to be and seized his opportunities fully when they presented themselves, and knew when to pounce. James is too impatient in that way.

To go further with Wade's penetration and how he's better there. He's much better with hesitant moves, body fakes, pump fakes. And he's so good in making you think he's going to utilize a screen and then efffortlessly goes away from it. By the time he's by the rim opposing defenders just wisp and accept the blocking foul not bothering to take the step for the charge as he goes around them because he's one step ahead physically and with his mind (bball IQ).

I also think Wade is a better rebounder. If Wade was 6'8" like James he'd have much higher rebound averages. But naturally, he is a better rebounder. He's excellent in traffic in low post and does such a great job against bigger men in traffic. He also does a better job than james in tracking the ball in the air and judging where it's going to bounce off of and land. And does a better job positioning himself to that spot quickly. Wade is averaging 7 boards a game this year at 6'4".

He gets a lot of his rebounds down low, in the low post against bigger men,, and wins !! Like this rebound here which he does often against bigger people. Jordan was the same with his instinctual rebounding down low for a guard-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSpvx6Gvzc8


Your obviously Biased towards Wade, your whole post was what Wade does better than Lebron but not the other way around..I have watched just about Every Heat Game this year and I would say out of the 70 gms thus Far Lebron was there best player 40 times Wade 25 times and Bosh maybe 5 times..That is also about right While Wade is Great in his own right Lebron is still a little bit better a little more often.

Last edited by Kingwillball : 03-20-2011 at 02:16 AM.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:19 AM   #69
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

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Originally Posted by knightfall88
he may of gave cleveland a fantastic 3 - 4 years but he absolutely fcked them for the next 5 years.

how?

he was a free agent. youre allowed to go wherever you want.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:23 AM   #70
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

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Originally Posted by Kingwillball
Your obviously Biased towards Wade, your whole post was what Wade does better than Lebron but not the other way around..I have watched just about Every Heat Game this year and I would say out of the 70 gms thus Far Lebron was there best player 40 times Wade 25 times and Bosh maybe 5 times..That is also about right While Wade is Great in his own right Lebron is still a little bit better a little more often.

and youre not biased?

you were a 'cleveland fan' before bron came to miami and in every game thread you count james' poor games as 'disinterested' or 'letting wade and bosh get theirs'...

you cant seem to face the facts that bron can have bad games.


bron is better, and it is clear as to who the best is. though wade is a comfortable second at the moment as well. these two are far ahead of anyone at the moment.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:33 AM   #71
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by donald_trump
how?

he was a free agent. youre allowed to go wherever you want.
Let's not get into this again... but, suffice to say, his lack of communication with anyone regarding his decision led to the worst possible situation for the Cavs.. ie: losing the best player in the league for a trade exception as opposed to, say, what the Nuggets got for Melo or what the Jazz got for DWill... And it led to the Cavs making moves in the coaching staff and FO in an attempt to appease James when he knew that he wasn't coming back.

But, it is all water under the bridge, now. Rancid water, but water nonetheless.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:39 AM   #72
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by donald_trump
bron is better, and it is clear as to who the best is. though wade is a comfortable second at the moment as well. these two are far ahead of anyone at the moment.
Dwight definitely has a case for 2nd
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:49 AM   #73
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kingwillball
Your obviously Biased towards Wade, your whole post was what Wade does better than Lebron but not the other way around..I have watched just about Every Heat Game this year and I would say out of the 70 gms thus Far Lebron was there best player 40 times Wade 25 times and Bosh maybe 5 times..That is also about right While Wade is Great in his own right Lebron is still a little bit better a little more often.

okay, now try to come off the deep end. And please show me where did I say that Wade was a better overall player than LBJ at this point in their careers. Please show me.

I was just furthering some of the points from a previous poster by adding some specifics. On just a couple areas of their games.

That doesn't automatically suggest who i think (or should it alone sway anyone else) on who the better "overall" player is, as we can go down a list and compare 20+ different attributes between the two. Just thought the couple I brought up should be mentioned.
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:53 AM   #74
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Default Re: The leBron James mystique

He has a very large array of moves on the offensive end.
Great dribbling for his size.
Not a bad jumper, not always rliant in that department though.
Best guy in the league at forcing the ball into the basket regardless of being fouled or what not.
VERY injury-resilient. (People tend to forget that.)
A good defender.
A very good passer.

Notice I haven't mentioned his athleticism / size yet...
That's how good he is.
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