"Daddy (1 or 2), where do babies come from?"

[Quizno]

This debate isn't entirely about "marriage" either... it's original purpose was seeking a logical and rational explanation as to how two fathers would explain to their son or daughter how "babies are made" and why they have two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy.

Marriage doesn't even have to come into the equation... when I keep referencing "mother nature" I'm talking about reproduction... I'm talking about the creation of life. I'm not speaking of mother nature as a knowledgeable entity (such as God), so your entire "your argument is SO dumb" point is immediately tossed out the window.

ahem

The concept is entirely simple. I'm all for equal rights, etc... but "marriage" is and always has been defined as a man and a woman. Why does all that have to change b/c a sect of our society is all butt-hurt (LOL) over this?

you brought marriage into this literally on the first page of the thread stop backtracking because you know your point has no basis and makes no sense

[General]

That ad is pretty stupid, but I did vote yes on Prop 8 in 2008 for my own personal beliefs.

[Mach_3]

This debate isn't entirely about "marriage" either... it's original purpose was seeking a logical and rational explanation as to how two fathers would explain to their son or daughter how "babies are made" and why they have two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy.

Marriage doesn't even have to come into the equation... when I keep referencing "mother nature" I'm talking about reproduction... I'm talking about the creation of life. I'm not speaking of mother nature as a knowledgeable entity (such as God), so your entire "your argument is SO dumb" point is immediately tossed out the window.

What you don't understand is that NO homosexual ever "chooses" to be homosexual, they are just born that way. How can you condemn a part of our society just because they were born a certain way? What your doing almost literally sounds like bigotry

[Mach_3]

And if a gay dad's son ask him where babies come from, tell that lil ni99a the truth about it. Why lie when they will find out anyway? and if he asks why the dad is gay, tell that ni99a the truth again. Better to teach your kid that the world is a fcuked up place then for them to learn about it later. (And no i don't mean gay marriage or being gay is fcuked up)

[Legend of Josh]

What you don't understand is that NO homosexual ever "chooses" to be homosexual, they are just born that way. How can you condemn a part of our society just because they were born a certain way? What your doing almost literally sounds like bigotry

No, what you don't understand is that you claim homosexuals are 100% born that way, when you DO NOT know that entirely. How do you know no homosexual chooses to be gay?

There are countless videos on YouTube, articles on the internet where previously gay people claimed they were once "born gay" however now understand within themselves that they once MADE A PERSONAL CHOICE to be gay, but now they're MAKING THE CHOICE to be heterosexual and they claim they fully believe they were originally born heterosexual, and not born homosexual.

How do you refute their claims?



What you're doing saying it's FACT that homosexuals are born gay, PERIOD, is what comes across as something you obviously don't even remotely understand. It's your opinion they're born gay. It's my opinion there's an overwhelming factor (if not entirely) it's based on social environment.

Again, at this point it's all opinion ... so stop making yourself look like you're clueless about actual facts here versus opinion.

[niko]

No, what you don't understand is that you claim homosexuals are 100% born that way, when you DO NOT know that entirely. How do you know no homosexual chooses to be gay?

There are countless videos on YouTube, articles on the internet where previously gay people claimed they were once "born gay" however now understand within themselves that they once MADE A PERSONAL CHOICE to be gay, but now they're MAKING THE CHOICE to be heterosexual and they claim they fully believe they were originally born heterosexual, and not born homosexual.

How do you refute their claims?



What you're doing saying it's FACT that homosexuals are born gay, PERIOD, is what comes across as something you obviously don't even remotely understand. It's your opinion they're born gay. It's my opinion there's an overwhelming factor (if not entirely) it's based on social environment.

Again, at this point it's all opinion ... so stop making yourself look like you're clueless about actual facts here versus opinion.

I've seen pretty young children who you can see are already showing tendencies toward being gay. They get picked on, beat up, treated like utter shit. They don't want to be gay. I've worked with teenagers who were gay who swore up and down to anyone they were straight. Again, bullied. Picked on. Ostracized. They do not "want" to be gay, they do not "choose" to be gay. If there was a painful horrible treatment to cure their "gayness", they'd do it.

It's not a choice. I'm sure you won;t believe that, because then you can't rationalize away the fact you are basically just being hateful and exclusionary.

[Legend of Josh]

I've seen pretty young children who you can see are already showing tendencies toward being gay. They get picked on, beat up, treated like utter shit. They don't want to be gay. I've worked with teenagers who were gay who swore up and down to anyone they were straight. Again, bullied. Picked on. Ostracized. They do not "want" to be gay, they do not "choose" to be gay. If there was a painful horrible treatment to cure their "gayness", they'd do it.

It's not a choice. I'm sure you won;t believe that, because then you can't rationalize away the fact you are basically just being hateful and exclusionary.

YOU do not know for sure if it's choice or social environment one way or another. I do not know either. We're sharing our opinions. I'm just making the claim that male + female = life and male + male = nothing.

I can't make a factual claim that homosexuals are making a choice... it's my opinion... YOU (and please guys, stop pretending YOU'RE the ending and all final decision maker on homosexuals being born and it's not one's social environment) are giving your opinion. THE FACT is that YOU DO NOT KNOW! That's the fact. The fact is I don't know for FACT either. We're tossing opinions around.

You have homosexuals who claim they're born gay... and you have homosexuals (or were once one) who claim they made a choice, and are now making the choice to be heterosexual.

How can you say one group is right and one group is wrong? How CAN YOU on an individual level say they're wrong without living THEIR LIVES... without being in THEIR SHOES? You can't! So stop pretending there's been a discovered proven beyond a reasonable doubt gay gene or something of the equivalent that proves once and for all homosexuals are born gay and are not making a lifestyle choice.

We're not there, so by all means, please stop claiming these are factual claims and not your mere personal opinion.



It's very simple.

[Lamar Doom]

One of the saddest and funniest things about this thread is that despite his views on gay marriage, I thought he posted the OP commercial because he knew it was funny, but what we've come to find out is that it really spoke to him, and he's actually worried about 6 year olds having birds and bees talks with their two gay dads. Wouldn't they just explain that it takes male and female parts to make a baby but some people are gay/lesbian and use in vitro/insemenation/surrogates/adoption? i don't understand why telling the truth is wrong? because your bigot kids are picking on them at school? maybe. (please get snipped)

The only reason this shit is still an issue is because of people like you. This is the current group that's still semi-acceptable to discriminate against and you're one of the unenlightened few who needs to be apart of it. I'm not saying banning gay marriage is as bad as jim crow laws or keeping women from working or voting but it's the same theme served up 2012 style. Your opinions are all based in fear and hate, no matter how you try to spin it. Your opinion will be taken as seriously as segregation is now in just a few years.

stop backtracking because you know your point has no basis and makes no sense

this is how the entire thread has been with him. every point he tries to make gets rebutted and then he acts like that wasn't what he was talking about.

With or without the Bible, with or without religion, with or without God, one can still arrive at the conclusion that man + man doesn't seem right.

no, it may be gross or unrelatable but that doesn't define right and wrong. you don't get to determine what's wrong for other people when it's non-destructive.

but there's also atheists who are "extreme" in terms of blind faith without questioning things and are just as faithful there is no God.

I suppose one would make the argument those folks are morons too, but I'm not going to do so... calling people morons doesn't exactly do anything except upset people.

I think absolute athiesm is foolish. They can't know for sure about something so beyond our understanding. Science can never disprove god. I have a hard time believing that love, music, art, beauty, and other higher truths are just electrical signals in residual exploded star dust or lucky biology. I don't know what's worth believing and what just makes us feel better about our mortality but I know nobody knows for sure on either side. Having said that, I don't feel like the atheists step on people's lives, using their faith as an excuse to oppress. talking out your ass, dropping morals, and then trying to legislate morality is where the "moron" comes from.


you can do your little rolleyes and hammerhead smileys and be dismissive but you've wasted everybody's time here as I expected. this isn't a discussion, even though you keep trying to act like you're the one trying to have a real talk and everyone else is attacking you. your only real opinion here is that gay marriage is unnatural and evil. that's all you have to say, you're a homophobe, simple. everything else is you reaching to debate little semantic issues or declaring everything apples and oranges. I don't know if you have reading comprehension trouble or you're just too much of a stubborn doofus to hear the truth. you have not one valid legal, relgious, or moral point, you simply "don't think it's right". and the more poorly-thought-out replies you post, the clearer that becomes. you don't take anything from anyone's replies, you spent pages of rhetoric scrambling for some ground to stand on but it's not there, and not just because you're not smart enough to debate it.


the "gay exodus" group you're now using as some sort of argument for homosexuality being a choice is an infintesimal minority, fueled by guilt created by people like you. I don't doubt that there are some crazy f*ckers out there who "chose" to be gay, god knows why, but if you've ever spent any time with a real gay/lesbian person (which you obviously haven't) you know it's not a choice. you KNOW. it's a fact. of course you can't KNOW 100% without being every gay person on the planet but that sort of argument is retarded and applicable to anything you want to direct it towards. you're arguing perspective, not facts. you don't know that your parents are your parents, you don't know that the color you percieve as blue is what everybody else does. you don't know that you're alive. using common sense and experience is a little element of faith that allows us to not run around in circles until we die.

here's a great clip for you all to watch about josh's people who chose to be gay then chose to be straight again

The fact is I don't know for FACT either. We're tossing opinions around.

if you're so uncertain why are you so willing to stand for impeding these people's rights? it's their f*cking lives man, what the f*ck is wrong with you? grow up, mind your business.


you seem to have backed off your fears of homosexuality posing a threat to human reproduction, perhaps because even ISH's dumbest posters know how ridiculous that is. so now we're just left with you wanting to have a real discussion about what happens in the real life version of that near-sketch-comedy commercial you posted in the OP. unbelievable. this is why I said early on this discussion isn't worth it: "I don't really want to concern myself with archaic, unevolved arguments that should have been settled last century."

because the people who argue your side simply don't get it. you're a cro magnon among men

It's very simple.

[Legend of Josh]

Everyone says it's "not my business" ... but it's the world I live in. It's the country I live in. It's the state I live in. It's the city I live in. It's the community I live it. The ultimate result is the ending result is going to impact what goes on around me, and my family.

I'm sorry... but I'm not comfortable being in line at the local supermarket and seeing Adam and Steve standing behind their shopping cart one standing behind the other holding the other in front of him... and then turning around kissing the other like you might occasionally see Adam and Eve doing.

I'm sorry everyone... I'm just not comfortable with that. I have a right to feel that way.

I do realize one day... whether it be a year from now, two or a decade or century, that homosexual marriage will be not only legal in our society, but commonly accepted. That doesn't mean I as an individual have to also be comfortable with it, and support it, legal or not.

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

If a man can't help how he feels lust and sexual attraction towards another dude... that's OK... but when it comes to how I personally feel about it, I'm the ignorant idiot, moron, and one who isn't "with the program" and in the dark.

Right?

It's a choice, right? I have the "choice" to feel how I feel... it's within my own control, right? I mean, homosexuals can't control how they feel, but I can and I'm supposed to, otherwise I'm a pile of trash, and while I can't help how I feel, I'm still labeled all the above.

[Big_Dogg]

Everyone says it's "not my business" ... but it's the world I live in. It's the country I live in. It's the state I live in. It's the city I live in. It's the community I live it. The ultimate result is the ending result is going to impact what goes on around me, and my family.

I'm sorry... but I'm not comfortable being in line at the local supermarket and seeing Adam and Steve standing behind their shopping cart one standing behind the other holding the other in front of him... and then turning around kissing the other like you might occasionally see Adam and Eve doing.

I'm sorry everyone... I'm just not comfortable with that. I have a right to feel that way.

I do realize one day... whether it be a year from now, two or a decade or century, that homosexual marriage will be not only legal in our society, but commonly accepted. That doesn't mean I as an individual have to also be comfortable with it, and support it, legal or not.

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

If a man can't help how he feels lust and sexual attraction towards another dude... that's OK... but when it comes to how I personally feel about it, I'm the ignorant idiot, moron, and one who isn't "with the program" and in the dark.

Right?

It's a choice, right? I have the "choice" to feel how I feel... it's within my own control, right? I mean, homosexuals can't control how they feel, but I can and I'm supposed to, otherwise I'm a pile of trash, and while I can't help how I feel, I'm still labeled all the above.

You can feel how you want to feel and complain how it's not right and whatever other excuse you want to use, but the fact is, nobody cares what your personal opinion is on the matter, you can whinge and moan and cry about it all you want about how you don't think it's right and so on, but all your crying is not going to change the fact that at some point same sex marriage is going to get recognized and accepted in society just like same sex relationships were, you need to roll with it or its going to roll over you, its just that simple.

[Nanners]

Everyone says it's "not my business" ... but it's the world I live in. It's the country I live in. It's the state I live in. It's the city I live in. It's the community I live it. The ultimate result is the ending result is going to impact what goes on around me, and my family.

I'm sorry... but I'm not comfortable being in line at the local supermarket and seeing Adam and Steve standing behind their shopping cart one standing behind the other holding the other in front of him... and then turning around kissing the other like you might occasionally see Adam and Eve doing.

I'm sorry everyone... I'm just not comfortable with that. I have a right to feel that way.

I do realize one day... whether it be a year from now, two or a decade or century, that homosexual marriage will be not only legal in our society, but commonly accepted. That doesn't mean I as an individual have to also be comfortable with it, and support it, legal or not.

I have every right to feel the way I do.

I'm sorry if it upsets some of you, or makes you all feel I'm ignorant, narrow-minded or just flat out dumb, not with the times, etc. - I CAN'T HELP HOW I PERSONALLY FEEL ABOUT IT ... just like homosexuals CAN'T HELP how they are attracted to the opposite sex.

If a man can't help how he feels lust and sexual attraction towards another dude... that's OK... but when it comes to how I personally feel about it, I'm the ignorant idiot, moron, and one who isn't "with the program" and in the dark.

Right?

It's a choice, right? I have the "choice" to feel how I feel... it's within my own control, right? I mean, homosexuals can't control how they feel, but I can and I'm supposed to, otherwise I'm a pile of trash, and while I can't help how I feel, I'm still labeled all the above.

funny, it only took you 5 pages of your arguments getting completely destroyed for you to flat out admit that your concerns really have nothing to do with confused 6 year olds or the future of human reproduction, really you are just a selfish and homophobic idiot.

did you ever stop and think that adam and steve are allowed to make out in the grocery store regardless of whether gay marriage is legal? you are afraid that if gay marriage is legalized, you will see more gay people in public? you want gay marriage to stay illegal because you think that will make the homos hide in the shadows? how ****ing lame are you?

You are a joke. Ok, you have the right to be a bigoted moron because you cant control how you feel... just like KKK members have a right to their opinion and cant control how they feel about black people.

[Legend of Josh]

Too add LD - it's obvious me and you have never been on the best of terms, but really dude, I want this thread to be a respectable back-and-forth discussion without personal insults, etc.

Your last post (like all your others posts in response to me), were pushing some tongue-in-cheek "let me make my point all the while take multiple personal shots @ LOJ" ... asking me to please be snipped, bigot future kids, saying I'm talking out of my ass, defining me as a "moron" ... I'm wasting everyone's time when yet you keep reading and replying, so therefore you must be interested too, or maybe you're more interested in dissecting something I post so you find an opportunity to attempt to bash me on my own personal opinions on a rude and personal level (which is exactly how your post reads BTW).

You say I'm a homophobic person, without actually knowing me in RL, "simple" as if there's absolutely no question about it. I could make the comment you're a homosexual simple, b/c of your defense and support of homosexuality, but that would be foolish and ignorant b/c I don't know you on that level in RL.

I'm a "doofus" (name calling) and I clearly don't know anything, when one could make the argument many other people who share the same views as I do could and would entirely agree with many of the issues and points I've posted. That IMO, tells us you're basing that claim on your own personal opinion and those who think like you, but you present your comments as if they're simple fact, no questions asked.

Poorly thought out replies, and I'm not "smart enough" ... ignorant, etc. Is this your opinion or the opinion of you and others here who support homosexuality? I'd really like to see legit sources from both sides who strongly support each side make the same claims you're making... I suppose that would be more plausible versus something you're simply trying to paint the picture as fact instead of your opinion ... and I guess since LD says so, it must be true, no questions asked. Whatever LD says about LOJ, it must be fact. STFU if you feel differently.

It goes on and on. Your posts in here have been personal attack after personal attack on me personally. I've tried to keep personal attacks down, and tried to keep the discussion on the actual subject.

We both feel strongly about our own position on the subject, but I'm trying to keep things on a respectful level. Why do you feel so compelled to be such a douchebag? Why can't you just make your points without being rude? If I'm learning anything from "the other side" wouldn't it make more sense to be respectful? If I'm not being respectful to the "other side" I apologize, but I honestly am trying to be.

I was hoping I could learn something from this discussion, and others could too. What I'm coming to realize is that everyone attacks me personally on a religious or personal level. I don't feel the same as others, LOL, and that has surely pissed off some peeps. That wasn't my intention. Not at all.

[Legend of Josh]

funny, it only took you 5 pages of your arguments getting completely destroyed for you to flat out admit that your concerns really have nothing to do with confused 6 year olds or the future of human reproduction, really you are just a selfish and homophobic idiot.

did you ever stop and think that adam and steve are allowed to make out in the grocery store regardless of whether gay marriage is legal? you are afraid that if gay marriage is legalized, you will see more gay people in public? you want gay marriage to stay illegal because you think that will make the homos hide in the shadows? how ****ing lame are you?

You are a joke. Ok, you have the right to be a bigoted moron because you cant control how you feel... just like KKK members have a right to their opinion and cant control how they feel about black people.

LOJ compared to KKK. Did I realize a pair of men could "make out" in a grocery store line, legally? Obviously, dude. I'm not the idiot and moron you claim me to be. I was making the point I don't want to witness it. If society is accepting of it, it would be much more common; that was my point... and I wouldn't want to see it, personally. That is all.

I never made any such claim they couldn't, legally.



You claim I'm just a homophobic hateful filled heart pumping backwoods idiot, moron or whatever ... but damn dudes, it seems like you guys are the ones who are not respecting of other's opinions (mine and those who share my views ** and those people are just ignorant and would be better off dead pieces of sheetz) ... but I think it's clear as day ... the hate is coming from the other camp (in this thread especially; esp those who are attacking me personally, when I'm not attacking anyone who's a homosexual personally)

Yeah? Yep.

[dude77]

loj .. don't let these hypocrites get to you .. they say you're hateful and call you names, then they turn around and hate on you because you don't agree with something ..

[dude77]

LOJ compared to KKK. Did I realize a pair of men could "make out" in a grocery store line, legally? Obviously, dude. I'm not the idiot and moron you claim me to be. I was making the point I don't want to witness it. If society is accepting of it, it would be much more common; that was my point... and I wouldn't want to see it, personally. That is all.

I never made any such claim they couldn't, legally.



You claim I'm just a homophobic hateful filled heart pumping backwoods idiot, moron or whatever ... but damn dudes, it seems like you guys are the ones who are not respecting of other's opinions (mine and those who share my views ** and those people are just ignorant and would be better off dead pieces of sheetz) ... but I think it's clear as day ... the hate is coming from the other camp (in this thread especially; esp those who are attacking me personally, when I'm not attacking anyone who's a homosexual personally)

Yeah? Yep.

ironic isn't it ? but some people are so sensitive they lose it the moment anyone isn't on the same page as them .. for the retards in this thread .. not liking something and not agreeing with it and being hateful don't exclusively go hand in hand