Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops

Go Back   Message Board Basketball Forum - InsideHoops > InsideHoops Main Basketball Forums > Off the Court Lounge

Off the Court Lounge Basketball fans talk about everything EXCEPT basketball here

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 10-13-2010, 08:53 PM   #16
NuggetsFan
Nuggets/Avs/Broncos.
 
NuggetsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NuggetNation.
Posts: 10,067
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeuceWallaces
Guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk wrack up lots of 2nd assists because they make amazing plays that lead to easy goals for team mates. It's not like basketball where it would be given to guys who barely touch the ball or just in line for moving it around the key to switch sides.

Do you watch basketball? You could easily come up with 100 examples where the 2nd assist created the play. Melo posts up draws defenders kicks it to Billups who just swings the ball to Afflalo for a 3. Billups get's the assist but all he did was swing it to Afflao. He never created the play. Chris Paul penetrating drawing in defenders passes it to Marcus Thorton who does the exact same thing. He'll get the assist but Chris Paul is the reason for it.

There's really no way to judge the assist statistic in any sport. You need to the see the play. Sometimes it's the goal\basket scorer who does the main work and the assisting players just made a simple pass. Sometimes It's the 2nd guy who creates the play and the one guy just finishes the pass for the score. Sometimes It's just the one player directly feeding the player for a score.
NuggetsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 08:57 PM   #17
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
I don't think you know how critical the first pass out of the defensive zone is to a fastbreak. Or any sort of attacking strategy.
I don't know if you are agreeing with me but you've reiterated what my point was. Passing out of the defensive zone to setup a fast break would be just as critical to the basket as would a pass made to setup a goal that was tipped, but we don't award the assist to the outlet passer. And more often than not the second assist is no more important than the second assist when the ball is being rotated to free up a shooter. In relevance the second assist is important to the play, but I don't warrant it a stat as important as the setup assist.
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:01 PM   #18
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NuggetsFan
Do you watch basketball? You could easily come up with 100 examples where the 2nd assist created the play. Melo posts up draws defenders kicks it to Billups who just swings the ball to Afflalo for a 3. Billups get's the assist but all he did was swing it to Afflao. He never created the play. Chris Paul penetrating drawing in defenders passes it to Marcus Thorton who does the exact same thing. He'll get the assist but Chris Paul is the reason for it.

There's really no way to judge the assist statistic in any sport. You need to the see the play. Sometimes it's the goal\basket scorer who does the main work and the assisting players just made a simple pass. Sometimes It's the 2nd guy who creates the play and the one guy just finishes the pass for the score. Sometimes It's just the one player directly feeding the player for a score.

Basically the point I'm making. And like I said before, more often than not in hockey the scond assist isn't as important to the goal to warrant the stat.
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:04 PM   #19
NuggetsFan
Nuggets/Avs/Broncos.
 
NuggetsFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: NuggetNation.
Posts: 10,067
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hateraid
Basically the point I'm making. And like I said before, more often than not in hockey the scond assist isn't as important to the goal to warrant the stat.

Ya I guess I kinda mixed my words up. I think the assist statistic in general is flawed so I guess I would agree with you in that area. I still think in hockey the person who makes the 1st pass is pretty big to the play alot of the times. All tho there's no way in telling by the number.
NuggetsFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:30 PM   #20
hayden695
College star
 
hayden695's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: swimmin in Catz bongwater
Posts: 3,962
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Assists in hockey/basketball can be so misleading. It isn't like scoring where you can kind of see if it was legit by %'s or whatever.

I believe they credit it because just like everyone else is saying, sometimes it is more important to the play than the main assist. And the times where it wasn't as important it is just a gimme. You really need to actually watch to see if it is legit, just like most sports.

If they took it away then lots of guys would get screwed over considering they go through all the work but get no recognition. So they chose the lesser of two evils type of deal where some guys might get a gimme now and then.

I would like to see them somehow integrate the hockey assist in basketball. But give it a different name to distinguish it, and be very picky with it. Not just the second last guy to touch the ball.
hayden695 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:37 PM   #21
johndeeregreen
Oh yeah, Mitch Kramer?
 
johndeeregreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,009
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hateraid
I don't know if you are agreeing with me but you've reiterated what my point was. Passing out of the defensive zone to setup a fast break would be just as critical to the basket as would a pass made to setup a goal that was tipped, but we don't award the assist to the outlet passer. And more often than not the second assist is no more important than the second assist when the ball is being rotated to free up a shooter. In relevance the second assist is important to the play, but I don't warrant it a stat as important as the setup assist.
Basically you're using the way basketball keeps statistics as an argument against hockey, and that makes absolutely zero sense.
johndeeregreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:46 PM   #22
SinJackal
Banned
 
SinJackal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,374
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

I don't think it's useless. They played part in the scoring of the goal, they should get zero credit for it?

That makes less sense than having a stat for it. Let's say the defense collapses on a player, so he quickly passes it out to a center that he sees has a clear path to pass to another guy whom he can't pass to (blocked off), who quickly passes it to that open guy who then scores.

Why shouldn't he get credit for that? Especially with how infrequent hockey goals are in the first place. They would have horribly low stats, and that promotes more selfish play like we see in the NBA. And no thanks to that, hockey's bad enough as it is (no offense to hockey fans, it's just a low scoring game, I like playin' the video games a lot though, they're fun).

But yeah, in basketball there are so many FGs scored per game, you can easily get multiple assists without much effort every game. In hockey, your team might only score 1-2 goals. The odds of being one of the guys to assist on a play drastically decrease if the rule isn't the way it is now. It also helps know who are the best creators. The "middle man" shouldn't be the only one to get assist credit. :P imo anyway


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Chewing
This one is just as useless in my opinion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hold_%28baseball%29

Yeah, those middle relief guys should get nothing for their efforts, no stats at all, because I mean, who wants a stat saying they did well to hold a lead rather than just get penalized for not holding it if you screw up? -_-

Middle relief pitcher: Rivals kickers for most thankless job in pro sports. Both of which are vitally important.
SinJackal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:46 PM   #23
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
Basically you're using the way basketball keeps statistics as an argument against hockey, and that makes absolutely zero sense.


How so? They both have the same goal in mind which is to set up points?
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:49 PM   #24
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
I don't think it's useless. They played part in the scoring of the goal, they should get zero credit for it?

That makes less sense than having a stat for it. Let's say the defense collapses on a player, so he quickly passes it out to a center that he sees has a clear path to pass to another guy whom he can't pass to (blocked off), who quickly passes it to that open guy who then scores.

Why shouldn't he get credit for that? Especially with how infrequent hockey goals are in the first place. They would have horribly low stats, and that promotes more selfish play like we see in the NBA. And no thanks to that, hockey's bad enough as it is (no offense to hockey fans, it's just a low scoring game, I like playin' the video games a lot though, they're fun).




Yeah, those middle relief guys should get nothing for their efforts, no stats at all, because I mean, who wants a stat saying they did well to hold a lead rather than just get penalized for not holding it if you screw up? -_-

Middle relief pitcher: Rivals kickers for most thankless job in pro sports. Both of which are vitally important.

I never said it was useless to the play, I said it was useless to warrant the stat, and like I've mentioned more often than not it wasn't the more important pass to the play, just like when a ball is being swung to free up a shooter.
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:51 PM   #25
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

As for taking that stat away making the game more selfish you definately don't watch enough hockey. It is virtually impossible to singlehandedly dominate a game on the puck.
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:52 PM   #26
johndeeregreen
Oh yeah, Mitch Kramer?
 
johndeeregreen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 11,009
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hateraid
How so? They both have the same goal in mind which is to set up points?
You're joking.


Right?
johndeeregreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 09:56 PM   #27
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johndeeregreen
You're joking.


Right?

No, not really. If a couple of people have posted similarity to the concept than I don't think I'm too far off from my POV. I'd say statistically they aren't exactly comparable but moreso than baseball or football.
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 10:15 PM   #28
SinJackal
Banned
 
SinJackal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,374
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hateraid
I never said it was useless to the play, I said it was useless to warrant the stat, and like I've mentioned more often than not it wasn't the more important pass to the play, just like when a ball is being swung to free up a shooter.

Well like I said in the last post, if the guy who's being double teamed passes it to the guy at the top of the key who then passes it to an open guy in the corner for a three. . .the guy who was getting doubled basically created the play due to drawing the double, but gets no assist credit.

For basketball it's acceptable since there are dozens of assists to be had per game, but in hockey there's like half a dozen goals to get assists, spread between each team. . .and often not even that many. :X
SinJackal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 10:29 PM   #29
hateraid
Is it in you?
 
hateraid's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: In your local 7-11 freezers
Posts: 15,835
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
Well like I said in the last post, if the guy who's being double teamed passes it to the guy at the top of the key who then passes it to an open guy in the corner for a three. . .the guy who was getting doubled basically created the play due to drawing the double, but gets no assist credit.


You've just reiterated my point. That got no assist for it but he set up that play. Should he be awarded an assit? In hockey they do so why not in basketball.

In any case I agree with Nuggets the most, assist are flawed in any sport. But to award someone in hockey for the significance to the goal would be just the same as certain situations in basketball.

I'd say the guy who set up the pass in hockey is 70-80% more responsible for the goal than the second passer, so bringing in situations is not significant to make it a part of the argument.
hateraid is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2010, 10:36 PM   #30
SinJackal
Banned
 
SinJackal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Illinois
Posts: 6,374
Default Re: Is Hockey's second assist the most useless significant stat in sports?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hateraid
You've just reiterated my point. That got no assist for it but he set up that play. Should he be awarded an assit? In hockey they do so why not in basketball.

In any case I agree with Nuggets the most, assist are flawed in any sport. But to award someone in hockey for the significance to the goal would be just the same as certain situations in basketball.

I'd say the guy who set up the pass in hockey is 70-80% more responsible for the goal than the second passer, so bringing in situations is not significant to make it a part of the argument.

Not in basketball because there are dozens and dozens of buckets scored per game which can be assisted. It's far easier to get a basketball assist. Even with the hockey assist rule you dislike so much, it's still vastly more difficult to acquire one.

When there are an average of what, 5 goals being scored per game total (spread between both teams), the average assists per game is like. . .what, 8? 7-8? as opposed to the 5 goals?

It's not like it's flooding the sport. . .there's just so few stats to be had, they need some indication of who's doing what out there. Players who don't score goals or aren't in position to pass across the whole arena to the other wing player will rarely get any credit for offensive effort.

Why do you wanna take away credit from these guys? :\ The game would be more boring imo if the points for players were diminished by taking away second assists.
SinJackal is offline   Reply With Quote
This NBA Basketball News Website Sponsored by:


Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:34 PM.






NBA BASKETBALL FORUM KEY LINKS:

NBA Basketball

NBA Rumors

Basketball Blog

NBA Videos

NBA Free Agents

NBA Free Agency

NBA Summer Leagues

Utah Summer League

Sacramento Summer League

Vegas NBA Summer League

Search Site

FOLLOW US
Twitter
Facebook
Instagram
YouTube
















Powered by vBulletin Version 3.5.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. Terms of Use/Service | Privacy Policy