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Old 09-28-2006, 03:50 AM   #91
lakerfreak
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Originally Posted by Lakerfan
6'7 centers that whoop the current centers arse easily. They played during a time when a foul was a foul and a flagrant if ya tried to tackle them and end their career. Now its all WWE minus the chair shots.

Well that means wilt took advantage of that too.
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Old 09-28-2006, 04:29 PM   #92
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I am having a hard time believing this is even a discussion.

Kareem came into the league more dominant (granted, he had 4 years of college to Shaq's 2, but the NBA was still forcing kids to do 4 years of college at the time).
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Kareem as a rookie - 28.8 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 4.1 apg (NBA didn't track blocks then).
Shaq as a rookie - 23.4 ppg, 13.9 rpg, 1.9 apg.
Entering their primes (age 26)...
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Kareem - 3 MVPs, 1 championship, 27.0 ppg, 14.5 rpg, 4.8 apg, 3.5 bpg
Shaq - 0 MVPs, 0 championships, 26.3 ppg, 10.7 rpg, 2.3 apg, 1.7 bpg
Production at their absolute peaks
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Kareem in 75-76 (at age 28) - 27.7 ppg, 16.9 rpg, 5.0 apg, 1.5 spg, 4.1 bpg
Shaq in 99-00 (at age 27) - 29.7 ppg, 13.6 rpg, 3.8 apg, 0.5 spg, 3.0 bpg
As they got older...
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Kareem at age 33 (Magic's 2nd season) - 6 MVPs, 2 rings - 26.2 ppg, 10.3 rpg, 3.4 apg, 2.9 bpg
Shaq at age 33 (last season) - 1 MVP, 4 rings - 20.0 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 1.9 apg, 1.8 bpg

Let's think about some parallels for a minute... last season, Shaq was in his second season playing with Dwyane Wade - and while his numbers were pretty decent (especially considering the centers of today), he's obviously in decline - the team is Wade's and everyone knows it.

When Kareem was the same age, he was in his second season playing with Magic Johnson - and he was still considered the team captain and the go-to guy for another 3 or 4 years, Magic's rookie performance versus the 76ers in Game 6 of the 1980 Finals notwithstanding.

Kareem's per-minute scoring didn't really start tailing off noticeably until the 86-87 season (it dropped on a per game basis around 1983, but his minutes dropped, too) - when he was 38!

Who has Shaq been matched against night after night in the low post? Only David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon, and an aging Patrick Ewing early in his career and Yao Ming late in his career. Most nights he's going against guys like Matt Geiger or Jason Collins or Nazr Mohammed. Kareem was going against the likes of strong post players Wilt Chamberlain early in his career, Elvin Hayes, Wes Unseld, Nate Thurmond most of his early career in Milwaukee, and against young Robert Parish, Pat Ewing, Hakeem Olajuwon, and Bill Cartwright (look at his numbers early, don't look at his role on the Jordan Bulls - if not for Magic and Bird, he would have been one of the best ROYs ever) later in his career.

Kareem faced superior competition at his position night in and night out - and at the "peak of his powers" was FAR more dominant statistically than Shaq. I think people look at Kareem and see he's kind of sinewy, while Shaq is built like a bulldozer, and simply conclude Shaq would destroy Kareem on the inside. I'm not sure I agree... Kareem had a deceptive amount of power, some of the best balance ever, and while he couldn't stop Shaq from dunking now and again, Shaq wouldn't be backing him down for dunks every possession, all game.

And, of course, Shaq CAN be defended... you can use the Hack-a-Shaq strategy if you absolutely have to. Kareem was impossible to defend... he shot over 70% from the line for his career (not great, but at least acceptable) and of course there was almost no way to stop the Skyhook.

I think psychologically, Shaq's sheer size and power had more of a devastating impact on opponents than did Kareem's steady rain of skyhooks, but the ability to dominate a game? Sorry, I feel Kareem did it better, did it in more ways, and did it far longer than Shaq did. I hear of teams gameplanning ways to stop Shaq. I didn't hear of teams gameplanning to stop Kareem - because they all said once Kareem got the ball, he could always skyhook, there's nothing you can do to stop it, and so you just hope he misses. You gameplanned to deny Kareem the ball, but once he got the ball, you had to surrender. With Shaq, you could always send the second defender or take the foul.

Not to say Shaq wasn't the absolutely dominant center of his era. And not to say Shaq is not a physically intimidating specimen. And not to say you can "out-power" Shaq. But in basketball, you don't HAVE to out-power a guy, you can just foul him. Kareem was the dominant center of his era, in a league with fewer teams AND lots more good to great big men. Kareem could out-muscle you, out-maneuver you, AND out-think you. And Kareem could do it longer than Shaq.

Kareem is the more dominant basketball player. Shaq is physically stronger, and physically more powerful, but Kareem is better at all aspects of BASKETBALL.
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Old 09-28-2006, 07:32 PM   #93
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why people always bring that bullsh*t MVPs...wat do u think about nashMVPs?
KAJ won that 25 MVPs dunkin in Shaqs face?u can bring all that numbers...its ok...but about the MVPs...dnt bullsh*t me plz
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Old 09-28-2006, 11:20 PM   #94
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Sound and Fury...nice job spelling it out very clearly so even rzp can understand. Some people don't want to believe 6 MVPs means anything. That's fine. Only one other person has accomplished that (MJ). But the rest of facts should make it clear to everyone...esp the fact that Kareem played against far superior centers on a nightly basis.
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:29 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by bleedinpurple
Sound and Fury...nice job spelling it out very clearly so even rzp can understand. Some people don't want to believe 6 MVPs means anything. That's fine. Only one other person has accomplished that (MJ). But the rest of facts should make it clear to everyone...esp the fact that Kareem played against far superior centers on a nightly basis.

dude MJ has FIVE "MEDIA MVP BULLSH*T AWARDS";
same media who hates Shaq and his bad work ethic (who cares ...hes dominant anyway)
same media who hates KB(dnt know why...) and will never give that sh*t to him by the way
can u tell based on what KG was MVP and not Shaq? Nash was the MVP and not Lebron or Kobe or TD? there is no statistic...its just a opinion(media opinion...u know,they talk **** many times)...so i dnt give a sh*t for it

=]

Last edited by rzp : 09-29-2006 at 10:26 AM.
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Old 09-29-2006, 12:45 AM   #96
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hey bleedinpurple , wat do u think about the "DPOY"? do u really believe in that ****? u think Ben Wallace or Artest(OMG ARTEST) or Mutombo are better defensively than TD or Shaq (just use ur mere presence)?wats the real DPOYs worth?
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Old 09-29-2006, 01:28 AM   #97
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MVP's are a media vote...most of the time the media doesnt realize the importance of these awards so they just do who they like.

They gave it to garnett on a year where his previous year was much better and they just read all the articles that Garnett SHOULD have won that year.

Instead they gave it to Duncan that year and then gave it to garnett the next year. Then Nash improves a bad phoenix team and he deserved it that year.

But then last season Kobe breaks ever record taking his team (11 + wins over previous year) and Made some noise in the playoffs with the second youngest team in the NBA.

Your telling me the MVP means as much as it sounds?

It can't be if it is based on the media's votes. Some of them didnt even add bryant to the ballot.

now to leave him completely off the ballot is very ridiculous...sorry...its true.
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Old 09-29-2006, 11:59 PM   #98
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rzp,
I agree that the MVP is not all that. And that Kobe deserved it last year but Nash got it. But winning it 6 times is the real deal. DPOY? Like the other awards it's a vote. No doubt Artest and Big Ben deserve their props. In Shaq's prime he was a solid defender. He never could guard a high-post pick/roll. Not a great shot blocker, but decent. Take him 3 feet from the basket and he's useless.
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Old 09-30-2006, 12:40 AM   #99
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rzp,
In Shaq's prime he was a solid defender. He never could guard a high-post pick/roll. Not a great shot blocker, but decent. Take him 3 feet from the basket and he's useless.

true!
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Old 09-30-2006, 01:37 AM   #100
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I think part of the problem is that RZP has never seen Kareem play. He was a very uniquie player and as was said here, he played against VERY stiff competition, as compared to Shaq.

It's a shame we cannot bring players back for people to see them play. I would suggest subscribing to the NBA channel so you can watch the ******** Classics and see NBA history.

That is not to imply that there are not great players today, but I think you are underestimating how great players were back in the day. Kareem remains the NBA leading scorer for a reason... he was awesome!
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Old 09-30-2006, 05:35 AM   #101
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(Random list of opinions related to this thread) KG doesn't gaurd Shaq...I don't remember Duncan gaurding Shaq either. Are you sure? Nazi Mohammad? Why would KG gaurd SHAQ? I think these players are PF's to lengthen their careers. Defensive purposes is another reason why they are PF's. They can shoot better than Shaq, and quicker also. Kareem would be a PF today if he entered the league. Shaq doesn't take last second shots because he can't shoot long range shots. When you are inside, it's easier to get mugged by 3 or 4 defenders at a time.

Was Kareem a soft player like KG? Is it just me or everytime you think of Kareem you imagine him throwing up a hook shot?? Well, here's the information I've accumulated throughout my short life. Kareem is a great player, probably the best center ever in the case of dominance. BUT, there's no real way to measure his skills because he played against mediocre defense. If you watch old Kareem videos, it's ridiculous how bad the defense against him is.

But in terms of Shaq, Kareem is the better ball handler, passer, rebounder and has the untouchable sky hook that is superior to Shaq's shot in every way. BUT, to think that Kareem could hang defensively against Shaq's power is laughable. Ben Wallace gets schooled and he's like 270 or something like that?

BUT let's say that Kareem had today's diets and physical fitness opportunities that today's athletes get, he would DESTROY Shaq in every aspect of the game. Now work ethic...how the hell can anyone say Shaq doesn't work his ass off? Well, I guess whoever said that has a point because he's fat everytime he comes back from the offseason.

I want to know more about Kareem than I do now so anyone who feels like spitting out random facts about him would be appreciated. I would like to know what makes his work ethic so good, since all they did back then was make everything look better than it really was. They wouldn't tell you Kareem was drinking and doing all the white women he could get a hold of because media was scarce.
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Old 09-30-2006, 04:50 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedinpurple
Sound and Fury...nice job spelling it out very clearly so even rzp can understand. Some people don't want to believe 6 MVPs means anything. That's fine. Only one other person has accomplished that (MJ). But the rest of facts should make it clear to everyone...esp the fact that Kareem played against far superior centers on a nightly basis.

this is are the centers kareem faced

parish (overrated), laimbeeir (not elite), malone (granted, finally a true elite center, walton (healthy for like 4 seasons), young hakeem, young ewing.

this are the centers shaq faced.

mourning, ben wallace, prime ewing, prime mutombo, prime robinson, prime hakeem, tom chambers, divac, eaton.

how did kareem face better centers ?

also kareem might have 6 MVPs, but shaq has 3 in a row in the NBA FINALS, those mean much more.
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Old 09-30-2006, 05:35 PM   #103
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Well Ok,

But even if kareem had faced these centers of today. nobody was gonna gaurd him well...he would still be a great player with the unstoppable Sky Hook.

So let's be fair...Shaq Dominated and captian dominated.

If they both switched places, They would both still dominate!!!
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Old 09-30-2006, 05:39 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by lakerfreak
Well Ok,

But even if kareem had faced these centers of today. nobody was gonna gaurd him well...he would still be a great player with the unstoppable Sky Hook.

So let's be fair...Shaq Dominated and captian dominated.

If they both switched places, They would both still dominate!!!

well said

also i still think wilt would be the best rebounder if he played in any era.
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