In the same mins, Jordan has more PTs/RBs/ASTs/BLKs/STLs but less TOs then Kobe

[Yao Ming's Foot]

You like Defensive Rating, eh Yao?

Well, guess what?

Tracy McGrady has a lower career Defensive rating than your beloved Kobe. Clearly, by your logic, T-Mac>Kobe on defense.

Oh, Dwyane Wade has a lower DRTG too! Amazing And here you were arguing Kobe>Wade on defense in that other thread.

Let's look at guards who had lower DRTG's than Kobe in the years he made all-defensive teams (I bolded the hilarious ones)

1999-00: Ron Harper, Jason Kidd

2000-01: Jason Kidd, Eddie Jones, Charlie Ward, Dan Majerle, Latrell Sprewell, Allen Iverson, Doug Christie, Anthony Carter, Derek Anderson, Erick Strickland, Terry Porter, Aaron McKie, Bobby Jackson, Hershey Hawkins, Baron Davis, Bonzi Wells, Eric Snow, Elliot Perry, Tracy McGrady, Tim Hardaway, Mario Elie, Tony Delk, Chris Childs, Rodney Buford, Brevin Knight, Allan Houston, Eddie House, Adrian Griffin, Antonio Daniels, Jason Williams, David Wesley, John Stockton....the list goes on, too!

2001-02: Jason Kidd, Stephen Jackson, Eddie Jones, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Kerry Kittles, amongst others

2002-03: Jason Kidd, Kerry Kittles, Manu Ginobili, Stephen Jackson, Doug Christie, Michael Jordan, Chauncey Billups, amongst others

2003-04: Manu Ginobili, Jamaal Tinsley, Vince Carter, Baron Davis, Dwyane Wade, amongst others

2005-06: Manu Ginobili, Jason Kidd, Tracy McGrady, Mike Miller, Vince Carter, Tony Parker, Dwyane Wade, amongst others

2006-07: Tracy McGrady, Monta Ellis, Dwyane Wade, Jacque Vaughn, Luther Head, Brent Barry, Kirk Hinrich, Beno Udrih, Larry Hughes, Vassilis Spanoulis , amongst others

2007-08: Tracy McGrady, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Bonzi Wells, amongst others

2008-09: Dwyane Wade, Brevin Knight, George Hill, Mickael Pietrus, Tony Allen, Delonte West

2009-10: Brandon Jennings, Manu Ginobili, James Harden, Raymond Felton, Carlos Delfino, Dwyane Wade, amongst others

2010-11: Mario Chalmers, Dwyane Wade, Tony Allen, Nate Robinson, Von Wafer, Derrick Rose, Kyle Korver , amongst others



Damn, Yao, according to your logic, Kobe has NEVER deserved all-defense

Individual defensive rating and team defensive rating are different animals. You can be a bad defensive player and have a good defensive rating. You cant be a bad defensive team and have a good defensive rating.

[bwink23]

I wonder why you left out the late 90s and early 00s



Kobe's had 4 finals trips and 3 rings before 05. You remember that right?

Cuz that's not the time frame Kobe had his most dominant offensive years now is it?? Same reason i left out Jordan's late years....

DA DEERRR DEEERR DA DE DA DEEERR!!!!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Maybe he was showing some mercy on your hero Kobe

Right

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Cuz that's not the time frame Kobe had his most dominant offensive years now is it?? Same reason i left out Jordan's late years....

DA DEERRR DEEERR DA DE DA DEEERR!!!!

Ah the fact that it was also the era where he faced about 20 playoff teams with a lower def rating than Jordan had nothing to do with it?

[Nevaeh]

Individual defensive rating and team defensive rating are different animals. You can be a bad defensive player and have a good defensive rating. You cant be a bad defensive team and have a good defensive rating.

What's that? You mean there are variables in the game of basketball that can make things like this possible? Nah nah, f@ck that!! I WON'T accept that. Defense Rating formula is FULL PROOF, with no flaws at all!!

You trippin' YMF, you TRIPPIN'!!!

[bwink23]

Ah the fact that it was also the era where he faced about 20 playoff teams with a lower def rating than Jordan had nothing to do with it?

NOPE....the fact he was playing in an era that was in transition, with an influx of inexperienced talent, weaker shooters, slow paced ball and more 3-point shooting had something to do with it Oh, and the handcheck rule that needed to be implemented. ,which resulted in more FT's, higher eFG%....the era Kobe did his most damage, LOL....


Notice how Kobe's FG% never budges year to year, only his FTA's.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What's that? You mean there are variables in the game of basketball that can make things like this possible? Nah nah, f@ck that!! I WON'T accept that. Defense Rating formula is FULL PROOF, with no flaws at all!!

You trippin' YMF, you TRIPPIN'!!!

What are the flaws with team defensive rating? Is it possible for a bad defensive team to have a good defensive rating? Is it possible for a good defensive team to have a bad defensive rating? How would that happen?

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

What's that? You mean there are variables in the game of basketball that can make things like this possible? Nah nah, f@ck that!! I WON'T accept that. Defense Rating formula is FULL PROOF, with no flaws at all!!

You trippin' YMF, you TRIPPIN'!!!

Yao wants to have his foot and and eat it too.

[guy]

Individual defensive rating and team defensive rating are different animals. You can be a bad defensive player and have a good defensive rating. You cant be a bad defensive team and have a good defensive rating.

Right now the Heat are #9 in DRT and the Knicks are #10. How are those two teams that close defensively to each other? How are the Heat that high and the Knicks that low in the first place? In 2010, the Bobcats and Bucks had lower DRT then the Celtics, Lakers, Magic, and Cavs. In 2008, the AI/Melo Nuggets were in the top 10 in DRT despite the fact that EVERYONE was criticizing how horrible defensively they were the whole year. There's way too many inconsistencies to really depend on DRT meaning much.

[bwink23]

What are the flaws with team defensive rating? Is it possible for a bad defensive team to have a good defensive rating? Is it possible for a good defensive team to have a bad defensive rating? How would that happen?

Look no further than the 1999-2004 era for that....

See 2003 Wizards vs. 1991 Chicago Bulls.....DEERRRR!!!

[bwink23]

There are OBVIOUS discrepancies in defensive ratings based on ERA's....

A child can figure out that the defensive ratings aren't for CROSS-ERA examination....

1980's-early 90's.....running game, high FT's but lower 3-point shots, 48-50%eFG%.

99-2004....lower eFG%, inexperienced draft picks, high amount of 3's, slow game pace, low FT attempts. 47-48%eFG%.

2005-present....still slow game pace, rule changes to benefit the perimeter players, many more FT's taken compared to early 2000's. 48-50%eFG%

Points per possession is near identical between 2000's and early 1990's.....

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Right now the Heat are #9 in DRT and the Knicks are #10. How are those two teams that close defensively to each other? How are the Heat that high and the Knicks that low in the first place? In 2010, the Bobcats and Bucks had lower DRT then the Celtics, Lakers, Magic, and Cavs. In 2008, the AI/Melo Nuggets were in the top 10 in DRT despite the fact that EVERYONE was criticizing how horrible defensively they were the whole year. There's way too many inconsistencies to really depend on DRT meaning much.

Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.

[guy]

Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.

The fact that there DRT is pretty good further validates that DRT is flawed because they were absolutely horrible defensively. They repeatedly made horrible mistakes on defense. Commentators would repeatedly talk about how bad their defense was and even George Karl acknowledged and joked about how bad they were.

[bwink23]

Nuggets were criticized because they were a high pace team and people only look at PPG numbers. The fact that there per possession numbers were pretty good just further validates that defensive rating doesn't punish high paced teams.

In that case, in Offensive Rating we can assume that the late 80's, early 90's had BETTER OFFENSIVE teams, with ratings in 107-108 range...compared to the early 2000's with ratings of 103-104, YES???

[LA_Showtime]

I still don't understand what the point of this thread was. I gave you an objective response, you responded accordingly and repeated what I said, and now you're just arguing with a bunch of people for no reason whatsoever. What are you trying to prove? Jordan > Kobe? Sorry, that's been proved countless times and doesn't even have to be proved because the margin is so wide. Are you trying to prove basketball sucks nowadays? Then don't watch it.