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Old 03-02-2012, 02:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
Pride used all that pro wrestling gimmicky stuff. Fireworks, pyro, lights, naked dude banging a drum, fancy openings, horrible woman screeching fighters' names, etc...
That's called a good production that went along with the Japanese culture. I don't think any objective person can honestly, with a straight face, insist UFC's production comes anywhere close to Pride's let along it being anything BUT gimmicky.



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What does that have to do with the production/announcing? The drunken fans don't bother me that much, but I don't care for the booing. However, I'm not a big fan of the Japanese silent, are we in a library crowds either. I like the emotion of the crowd. It can be an electric atmosphere with the chanting and cheering.

It's all part of it. The Japanese fans understood the sport and what was going on to a degree that the UFC crowd hasn't and likely never will. You can tell in their reactions based on the style of fights. It goes to the ground? You hear boos in no time which result in terribly early standups. The Japanese crowd had a great respect for technique and weren't simply there to see blood and brawls.


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Quadros is boring as hell and Bas is biased to hell himself. Who gives a shit what Rogan wears anyways? I'll take Rogan over anyone. Bas would be #2. I'll take Buffer a billion times over the screeching banshee.
Again, it's part of the production and highly unprofessional. Rogan and the UFC crew roll with a fighter before hand and give terribly subjective announcing throughout a fight based on it. Goldberg is like a sound board every fight.


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It depends on how you define 'produced'. Anderson Silva didn't fight in Pride that many times, and fought in other orgs before that. Henderson fought in the UFC before Pride. Fedor fought in Rings before Pride. Bas never fought in Pride. Saku fought in the UFC before Pride. Shogun fought elsewhere before Pride. So did Nog. Wandy fought in the UFC before he fought in Pride. Hughes and GSP never fought in Pride. And, Ortiz, Penn, Couture, and Liddell all began their careers in the UFC.
He fought in Pride before UFC. Fedor made his name in Pride. Noguiera made his name in Pride. Sakuraba made his name in Pride. Silva made his name in Pride. Verdum made his name in Pride. Shogun made his name in Pride. Rampage made his name in Pride. Cro-Cop made his name in Pride. Rogerio made his name in Pride. The list goes on and on.



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They have a better scoring system in Japan, but they still had their share of horrible decisions.
All combat sports do. The frequency is much higher in UFC. Takedowns resulting in nothing but a standup and late flurries/damage winning rounds is beyond retarded.


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Go for it. Japanese refs aren't that good. Someone like Aoki is allowed to punch someone in the back of the head a million times without even getting a warning while foreigners will get yellow-carded for BS reasons.
Thanks for mentioning the yellow card system. Another advantage Pride had over UFC.



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You're going to pretend you never saw anyone get caught up in the ropes? Hell, one guy lost his ear in the ropes.
It was rare. The ring allowed for a more free range fight that was fair for all styles of fighters rather than the Cage which gives a wrestler a severe advantage. It's a damn cage for ****s sake. How much more gimmicky and silly can you get?



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Not really. Do they pause streetfights because one guy is too far under the ropes? It's not supposed to mirror streetfighting anyways. Some guys use the ropes to avoid subs and strikes. Also, wrestlers' advantage with the cage is lessening with fighters getting better at defending it. The top 10 lists for each weightclass aren't dominated by people who rely heavily on wrestling. Strikers can do quite well in the UFC: JDS, Jones, Silva, Bendo, Aldo, and Cruz.
It's not supposed to be a street fight. It's a sport. If pausing is an issue because it breaks a fighters rhythm; especially one that has ground control, then take issue with the 5 minute rounds of the UFC which puts ground fighters at a huge disadvantage.



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The problem with GPs is that the best guy usually doesn't win. It's about who was lucky and didn't get injured.
I was referring to it in regards to the entertainment factor. You can't tell me a tournament featuring the best fighters in the world in a single event is awesome. On top of that, Silva and Fedor won their respective weight class Grand Prix's with the finals of each being arguably the top 2 fighters in each weight class....in the world.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:08 AM   #17
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

great, informative, back and forth argument. future reps to both, and i'm going to bed.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:56 AM   #18
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Wow, I didn't mean to turn this into a Pride vs. UFC debate but its created some good conversation. While I agree that Pride did have their problems such as the surfacing of the influence of the Yakuza, freak show matches, favoritism towards Japanese fighters, etc. I just felt I was getting a better overall product when watching their fights.

Pride had better rules (though viewed as more dangerous to some) such as soccer kicks, kneeing a downed opponent, round length, the card system, etc. that allowed for a more free flowing fight. Yeah someone would get caught up in the ropes and they would have to restart, but someone also couldn't lie on their back and stall (challenging the fight to hit the ground) because they can be the recipient of a well-placed stomp to the face.

It really was just a bunch of the little rules and stuff that was lost when everything transitioned to the UFC that made me lose interest. I still keep up casually, but find myself getting lost in conversation that go too deep into certain weight divisions on whatnot.
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:28 AM   #19
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Isn't it always like that? As a casual MMA fan, I only tune in to the marquee match ups. Don't really care for the under card.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:33 AM   #20
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

MMA has the "Nascar" thing going. Blows up, very popular for a few years, looks like the sky's the limit, on the verge of becoming a mainstream sport..........then the casual fans move on, and only the hard core fans are left.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:43 AM   #21
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

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Originally Posted by JohnnySic
MMA has the "Nascar" thing going. Blows up, very popular for a few years, looks like the sky's the limit, on the verge of becoming a mainstream sport..........then the casual fans move on, and only the hard core fans are left.

When did that ever happen with Nascar?

I'm being serious, I have never seen it as all that popular...

As far as MMA, I could see it losing some followers, but it won't go the way of boxing just because it has so much more to offer than boxing does. MMA also doesn't have the problem of having it's two best fighters be unable to schedule a fight for....I don't even know how long it's been
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:37 AM   #22
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

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When did that ever happen with Nascar?
About 10-12 years ago. Nascar was really blowing up, then it flattened out.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:41 PM   #23
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Jack
That's called a good production that went along with the Japanese culture. I don't think any objective person can honestly, with a straight face, insist UFC's production comes anywhere close to Pride's let along it being anything BUT gimmicky.

Nobody is saying that UFC's production is up there with Pride's. I was just saying that I watch MMA for the fights and not for the other stuff. I don't need all the fancy openings and whatnot.

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It goes to the ground? You hear boos in no time which result in terribly early standups.

That's a lazy generalization. They're not stood up early most of the time (else people wouldn't complain about the wrestlers).

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The Japanese crowd had a great respect for technique and weren't simply there to see blood and brawls.

Well, they have a different culture. It just seems you're only looking for the bad in the UFC.

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Again, it's part of the production and highly unprofessional. Rogan and the UFC crew roll with a fighter before hand and give terribly subjective announcing throughout a fight based on it. Goldberg is like a sound board every fight.

He's not biased in that many fights. He calls the action as a fan and sometimes he gets carried away, but it's never really that much of a problem.

Quote:
Fedor made his name in Pride. Noguiera made his name in Pride. Sakuraba made his name in Pride. Silva made his name in Pride. Verdum made his name in Pride. Shogun made his name in Pride. Rampage made his name in Pride. Cro-Cop made his name in Pride. Rogerio made his name in Pride. The list goes on and on.

Well, you know what I can say here.

Fedor: 14-0 in Pride; 1-3 in SF
Big Nog: 17-3 in Pride; 4-3 in UFC
Wandy: 22-4 in Pride; 4-6 in UFC
Shogun: 12-1 in Pride; 4-4 in UFC
Rampage: 12-5 in Pride; 7-4 in UFC
Cro Cop: 18-4 in Pride; 4-6 in UFC
Lil Nog: 8-2 in Pride; 3-2 in UFC

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Thanks for mentioning the yellow card system. Another advantage Pride had over UFC.

I'm not sure how stealing a portion of a fighter's purse for little or no reason is an advantage for Pride...

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The ring allowed for a more free range fight that was fair for all styles of fighters rather than the Cage which gives a wrestler a severe advantage. It's a damn cage for ****s sake. How much more gimmicky and silly can you get?

Well, we're just not going to agree here at all. If anything is silly, then it's all the restarts due to someone being in the ropes.

Quote:
It's not supposed to be a street fight. It's a sport. If pausing is an issue because it breaks a fighters rhythm; especially one that has ground control, then take issue with the 5 minute rounds of the UFC which puts ground fighters at a huge disadvantage.

A huge disadvantage? A bit melodramatic are we? Odd how you complain about wrestlers having a huge advantage, but now they have a huge disadvantage?

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I was referring to it in regards to the entertainment factor.

It's a sport first and foremost.

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You can't tell me a tournament featuring the best fighters in the world in a single event is awesome.

Yeah, they can be awesome, but they can also be rather disappointing when fighters have to withdraw due to injury, a cut, exhaustion, etc... I'd rather see the top guys go at instead of the 2 luckiest guys.
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Old 03-02-2012, 05:52 PM   #24
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Ahh I had a whole response typed out for you and it got deleted.

What I will say is that posting the records of the Pride fighters at the end of their careers outside of Pride is hardly indicative of what they were capable of during their prime.

Also, its ironic you say cuts are disappointing yet you are defending the UFC, notorious for elbows which don't do any real damage beside opening up a cut which leads to fight stoppages.

Agree to disagree I guess. I tend to notice that people who began watching MMA during the Pride days stick with Pride being the best and those who watched a little later tend to stick with UFC. I'm not sure what your scenario is but for me; it's part nostalgia, and part Pride's awesomeness even as I rewatch events today.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simple Jack
What I will say is that posting the records of the Pride fighters at the end of their careers outside of Pride is hardly indicative of what they were capable of during their prime.

Come on, it's not like they were ancient when they went to the UFC. Most were in their early 30s and Shogun was 25. Hendo is doing fine/even better at 41.

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Also, its ironic you say cuts are disappointing yet you are defending the UFC, notorious for elbows which don't do any real damage beside opening up a cut which leads to fight stoppages.

Cut stoppages are rare. I can't even remember the last time a fight was stopped due to one.

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I tend to notice that people who began watching MMA during the Pride days stick with Pride being the best and those who watched a little later tend to stick with UFC. I'm not sure what your scenario is but for me; it's part nostalgia, and part Pride's awesomeness even as I rewatch events today.

I started with UFC 1. I didn't watch straight from UFC 1 'til now, though. I took some years off since MMA wasn't anywhere near as close to as accessible back then as it is now. It just seems Pride fanboys can't say anything nice about the UFC and ignore the negatives about Pride.
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Old 03-02-2012, 06:56 PM   #26
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackass18
Come on, it's not like they were ancient when they went to the UFC. Most were in their early 30s and Shogun was 25. Hendo is doing fine/even better at 41.

If you can't tell the difference between a fighter in his prime and clearly at the twilight of his career, I don't know what to tell you. Not a single one of those fighters were remotely close to their physical peak when they came to UFC. They all were noticeably older and slower. It's a combat sport, things like this tend to happen a bit faster than in other sports.



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Cut stoppages are rare. I can't even remember the last time a fight was stopped due to one.
Since 2009, there's been 8. It's not just the stoppages, though, as I should have said in my previous post. It's about a cut being opened, even if the fight isn't stopped. Fighters have said specifically their goal with elbow strikes is to cut the opponent.



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I started with UFC 1. I didn't watch straight from UFC 1 'til now, though. I took some years off since MMA wasn't anywhere near as close to as accessible back then as it is now. It just seems Pride fanboys can't say anything nice about the UFC and ignore the negatives about Pride.

I like UFC believe it or not. Just not as much as I liked Pride. Pride was always an amazing event, and I ALWAYS got my money's worth. I can't say the same for UFC.
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Old 03-02-2012, 08:20 PM   #27
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Big Nog and Wandy are really the only one who looked like slowed down noticeably from Pride. The others just look like excuses. I kept hearing how so-and-so was going to come to the UFC and just roll through their division.

There's a UFC event in an hour on FX
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:47 PM   #28
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Too many Boxing Organizations/Belts, politics, corrupt judges, and selfish promoters has ruined boxing.
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Old 03-03-2012, 08:19 AM   #29
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

About the cage thing - Most fighters prefer a cage. I know that the fighters at my gym do, eventhough it's forbidden in the Netherlands. There was a cage fight scheduled a few months back, but it was banned a week before the fight.

1. It's like a safety ring. When pressed up against the ropes you worry bout slipping out and often times you see the coaches holding the ropes into place. Fighters can be pushed up against the ropes, just like they can be against the cage, but there is no fear of falling out.

2. There is one major difference, being - you can use the cage to stand up, whereas with ropes, you have to stop and be re-centered if you go to close to the edge. It brings a new dynamic to the game. One that most fighters prefer.
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Old 03-03-2012, 11:11 AM   #30
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Default Re: Will MMA ever go the way of boxing...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnySic
MMA has the "Nascar" thing going. Blows up, very popular for a few years, looks like the sky's the limit, on the verge of becoming a mainstream sport..........then the casual fans move on, and only the hard core fans are left.
I dont know about the whole nascar thing, but I agree with this sentiment. MMA is what's in right now, but 15 to 20 years from now it wont be nearly as big as it is now.
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