Where do the 03-04 Pistons rank among the all-time great defenses?

[fpliii]

They have to be pretty high up there, right? Since I started watching in the early 90s, four defenses have most stood out to me...Ewing's Knicks, Duncan's Spurs, Garnett's Celtics, and that Pistons team that went all the way.

How do they compare to the greatest defenses you've seen? Do you think they're one of the best in league history (perhaps the best)?

Some Math

Evidently, DRTG = Points allowed * 100 / (.96 * (FGA - ORb + TO + (.44 * FTA)))

From this B-R search, we can plug in the necessary values to get:

2051 * 100 / (.96 * (1954 - 283 + 368 + (.44 * 642))) = 92.0

which is incredibly impressive. It's only 26 games, but they replicated it exactly in the postseason against tougher opposition.

I plugged in the 92.0 in place of their actual 95.4 DRtg on the season, and came out with a -2.6 z-score (# of standard deviations from the mean)on that season. This spreadsheet I put together a few months ago has the z-scores for other teams in the shotclock era. How many other teams check in at -2.0 or better? Here they are (along with DRtgs):

1956-57 BOS - 84.7 (-2.0)
1961-62 BOS - 85.7 (-2.3)
1962-63 BOS - 88.0 (-2.0)
1963-64 BOS - 84.4 (-2.0)
1964-65 BOS - 84.7 (-2.2)
1965-66 BOS - 88.6 (-2.0)
1967-68 MNM - 92.5 (-2.1)*
1969-70 NYK - 92.9 (-2.3)
1970-71 NYK - 91.9 (-2.2)
1974-75 WSB - 91.3 (-2.9)**
1975-76 GSW - 94.5 (-2.0)**
1980-81 PHO - 99.4 (-2.0)
1987-88 UTA - 103.1 (-2.0)
1988-89 UTA - 101.5 (-2.5)
1992-93 NYK - 99.7 (-2.9)
1993-94 NYK - 98.2 (-2.3)
2003-04 DET - 95.4 (-2.0)
2003-04 SAS - 94.1 (-2.3)
2004-05 SAS - 98.8 (-2.3)
2006-07 CHI - 99.6 (-2.1)
2006-07 SAS - 99.9 (-2.0)
2007-08 BOS - 98.9 (-2.7)
2010-11 BOS - 100.3 (-2.0)
2010-11 CHI - 100.3 (-2.0)

* first season of ABA's existence
** both occurred during the last couple of years the ABA was around, when it was considered to be a comparable league to the NBA

How about teams with a -2.5 or better?

1974-75 WSB - 91.3 (-2.9)**
1988-89 UTA - 101.5 (-2.5)
1992-93 NYK - 99.7 (-2.9)
2007-08 BOS - 98.9 (-2.7)

The Pistons with Sheed would be the fifth team in this group (remember we calculated their z-score to be -2.6).

[KG215]

Yeah, I was going to say, as great as they were before the Rasheed Wallace trade, he just took them to another level Not that he became the best defender once he joined the team (that was obviously still Ben Wallace), but he gave them an added ingredient to go from being an elite defensive team to an all-time great defensive team. And even as great as the Spurs defense was that year, I wouldn't have guessed they had a higher z-score than the Pistons before they got Wallace. Of course Duncan in his prime is one of the best defensive anchors ever, and Bowen was a nasty perimeter defender. No surprise their defense was just as good the following year, and that time it culminated in a championship.

[gin17]

the starting 5 were all defensive specialists/beasts. very rare to see a lineup that good defensively. they have to be at least top 3, imo.

[Deuce Bigalow]

Greatest of all time

2004 NBA Playoffs
DRtg: 92.0
Opponents PPG: 80.7
Opponents eFG%: 42.3
Opponents FG%: 39.2
Opponents 3P%: 27.7
Opponents PPS: 1.073

[Cali Syndicate]

Any outliers for weak defensive teams in any of those seasons?

Anyways that 08 Celtics team and Knicks are among the top IMO.

[fpliii]

Any outliers for weak defensive teams in any of those seasons?

Anyways that 08 Celtics team and Knicks are among the top IMO.

Here's a link to the spreadsheet. The worst defensive teams (those with 2.0 z-score) are highlighted in red.

Are you interested in just the seasons with the exceptionally strong defenses, or just bad defensive teams in general?

[Cali Syndicate]

Here's a link to the spreadsheet. The worst defensive teams (those with 2.0 z-score) are highlighted in red.

Are you interested in just the seasons with the exceptionally strong defenses, or just bad defensive teams in general?

All seasons. Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.

[Ne 1]

Easily one of the greatest defenses ever if not the greatest. Anchored by an incredible defender too, the best of the generation. I've never seen a defensive team quite like that Pistons squad after they got Sheed.

In Sheed's 21 starts in the '04 regular season, the Pistons allowed an average of just 76.8 ppg and they were 17-4 in those games. They held opponents under 70 points in 5 consecutive games in that stretch and under 80 points in 8 consecutive games during that same stretch. In those 21 games, an opponents high was 94 (the only time an opponent scored over 90 vs Detroit in those 21 games Sheed started). They held Indiana to just 61 points one game and in 8 out of those 21 games, they held their opponent under 70 points. In a playoff game, they held the Nets to just 56 points.

[fpliii]

All seasons. Thanks for the link. I'll take a look.

I just checked:

1969-70 MMF - 104.7 (2.0)*
1971-72 PTC - 113.1 (2.6)**
1975-76 UTS - 110.4 (2.1)
1977-78 HOU - 106.1 (2.5)
1983-84 SDC - 112.4 (2.0)
1984-85 GSW - 113.0 (2.2)
1989-90 ORL - 114.3 (2.3)
1990-91 DEN - 114.7 (2.5)
1992-93 DAL - 114.7 (2.3)***
1997-98 DEN - 112.1 (2.0)
1998-99 DEN - 110.4 (2.2)
1998-99 LAC - 109.7 (2.0)
2002-03 GSW - 109.5 (2.0)
2003-04 ORL - 110.4 (2.0)
2005-06 SEA - 114.4 (2.4)
2008-09 SAC - 114.7 (2.0)

* early ABA season
** also an ABA season, but the league started picking up not soon after this...they were probably legitimately bad on that end
*** they were also atrocious offensively, -2.7 in that department which is one of the worst ever (might be THE worst ever, I'd have to check)

EDIT: actually, the Bobcats last season at -2.9, the Nuggets in 03 at -3.0, Chicago in 98 and 99 at -2.9 and -3.1 (after Jordan/Pippen/PJax left), the 88 Clippers, the 76 and 77 Nets at -2.7 a each (after they lost Erving, who went to the Sixers), the ABA's New Orleans Jazz in 75 at -2.7 were all as bad or worse

[Cali Syndicate]

You compiled all this fpliii?

This is very nice.

[fpliii]

You compiled all this fpliii?

This is very nice.

Well, I exported the DRtgs for available for seasons from basketball-reference.com for available seasons. The rest I approximated using the methodology on ElGee's page (backpicks.com; it seems that it's currently adware-infested though).

But the z-scores are mine...Dean Oliver did something similar in his book 'Basketball On Paper', so I decided to take simple z-scores (which are again, just the number of standard deviations the sample data is from the mean, in a given season in this case). They're probably the best single number representations of how effective a team offense or team defense was overall (plus the pace z-rating numbers will tell you how much a given squad ran versus the rest of the league; DRtg, ORtg, Pace numbers vary as rules changes, this attempts to adjust for that and normalize those three numbers so they can be compared across eras).

It's useful to have it in one place though.

[Cali Syndicate]

Well, I exported the DRtgs for available for seasons from basketball-reference.com for available seasons. The rest I approximated using the methodology on ElGee's page (backpicks.com; it seems that it's currently adware-infested though).

But the z-scores are mine...Dean Oliver did something similar in his book 'Basketball On Paper', so I decided to take simple z-scores (which are again, just the number of standard deviations the sample data is from the mean, in a given season in this case). They're probably the best single number representations of how effective a team offense or team defense was overall (plus the pace z-rating numbers will tell you how much a given squad ran versus the rest of the league; DRtg, ORtg, Pace numbers vary as rules changes, this attempts to adjust for that and normalize those three numbers so they can be compared across eras).

It's useful to have it in one place though.

I still like. Paints a nice picture.

[fpliii]

I still like. Paints a nice picture.

Additionally it passes the eye test, which made the time/effort worth it IMO.

[Clippersfan86]

Best defense of all time.

[Toizumi]

Easily one of the greatest defenses ever if not the greatest. Anchored by an incredible defender too, the best of the generation. I've never seen a defensive team quite like that Pistons squad after they got Sheed.

In Sheed's 21 starts in the '04 regular season, the Pistons allowed an average of just 76.8 ppg and they were 17-4 in those games. They held opponents under 70 points in 5 consecutive games in that stretch and under 80 points in 8 consecutive games during that same stretch. In those 21 games, an opponents high was 94 (the only time an opponent scored over 90 vs Detroit in those 21 games Sheed started). They held Indiana to just 61 points one game and in 8 out of those 21 games, they held their opponent under 70 points. In a playoff game, they held the Nets to just 56 points.

I remember the Nets scoring just over 70 against the Pistons in a regular season matchup, in a loss obviously, and to them it was a moral victory because they scored over 70. Good times.