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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
    Talking about 1988? His better RS as far as raw stats only maybe, he already had plenty of severe injuries, had to carry all the load since 1986 when players where getting old, lots of injuries, Celtics had virtually no bench... He couldn't do more than he did between 1987 and 1988.

    Bird's peak definitely tops Magic, and again when they were healthy he was the best player for the most part easily. Magic only was above him as far as MVP voting in 1987. Magic arrived at a great Lakers team with Kareem a top3 GOAT close to his peak, Nixo a great PG to learn from, Wilkes, adding other guys, Kareem was having one of the GOAT Finals in 1985 still.
    Bird walked into a terrible Celtics team and made them one of the best and by 1987 they were done, not because of Bird.
    Bird absolutely went crazy in the 1984 PS and go look at what his teammates did, absolutely underperforming.
    Again Magic had better teammates, considering the years and their level, for the most part and played in a weaker conference and had weaker PG competition than Bird at Sf

    You're underrating Bird here.
    Magic really was better than Bird their first 4 years, primarily because of playoff play - Bird always managed to have a real bad playoff series, then it was Bird's peak for three years and then Magic was better from '87 on. Eight better years to three in favor of Magic is too much to overlook.

    If you say Magic gained a FMVP you have to give it back to him because Magic was definitely a much better player in the finals when Worthy won it.

    In one of the Celtic championships Cedic Maxwell was the FMVP. And only those who really watched to the game would know who he was. Even when Bird was in his super peak prime Mchale definitely outplayed him in the 1985 finals when they lost to Magic/Lakers. Bird also had series where he outplayed in elimination series by Dr. J and Marques Johnson, which isn't bad but it proves he had a pretty slow start. There are at least two series where he and Big Game James were on par - only a slight edge to Bird. Bird's domination at the position wasn't really that long. But I definitely think his peak was most impressive.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by ProfessorMurder
    Biggest one season turnaround ever (until 08 Celtics). That was Bird in his rookie year.
    I wasn't talking about regular season pressure - read the next sentence it makes that very clear.

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Magic maybe has a better career, but i think that Bird has a better peak.

    1984-1986 Bird was unreal...and don't forget, in the middle 80's there was a lot of Bird talk on GOAT discussion...he was called GOAT by a lot of people...

    To me, Bird is really underrated...
    Last edited by Iceman#44; 05-12-2013 at 05:54 PM.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Magic was better than Bird.. Not by alot but he was the better player. They both had great players around them and magic beat bird head up more than vice versa.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Le Shaqtus


    Where's that dumbest things said on ISH thread?
    http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=239468

  6. #66
    College star SHAQisGOAT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pointguard
    Magic really was better than Bird their first 4 years, primarily because of playoff play - Bird always managed to have a real bad playoff series, then it was Bird's peak for three years and then Magic was better from '87 on. Eight better years to three in favor of Magic is too much to overlook.

    If you say Magic gained a FMVP you have to give it back to him because Magic was definitely a much better player in the finals when Worthy won it.

    In one of the Celtic championships Cedic Maxwell was the FMVP. And only those who really watched to the game would know who he was. Even when Bird was in his super peak prime Mchale definitely outplayed him in the 1985 finals when they lost to Magic/Lakers. Bird also had series where he outplayed in elimination series by Dr. J and Marques Johnson, which isn't bad but it proves he had a pretty slow start. There are at least two series where he and Big Game James were on par - only a slight edge to Bird. Bird's domination at the position wasn't really that long. But I definitely think his peak was most impressive.

    Bird averaged 20.5/12.8/5.8/2.0/1.0 on 45/27/86, in his 1st 4 years in the ps
    Magic averaged 17.8/10.3/10.3/2.7/0.5 on 50/9/81, in his first 4 years in the ps

    Looking at their teammates

    Bird's:
    Parish - 17/10 with 2.7 blocks on 49/70, from 81 to 83
    McHale - 12/5 with 1.6 blocks on 56/79, from 81 to 83
    Maxwell - 16/8 on 57/78, from 80 to 83
    Tiny - 13 pts with 6.7 assts on 44/83, from 80 to 83

    Magic's:
    Karem - 27/10/3 with 3.5 blocks on 55/73, from 80 to 83
    Nixon - 19 with 7.6 assts on 48/77, from 80 to 83
    Wilkes - 20/6 on 49/73, from 80 to 83
    Mcadoo - 15/6 on 53% fg, from 82 to 83
    Cooper - 10/4/4 on 48/80 and his usual great D, from 80 to 83

    Magic easily had the better teammates plus they were playing better, and wasn't even the clear-cut man main, Kareem was for the most part.
    Bird was the clearcut main man and leader, definitely played better overall D also, faced also better overall competition in the East.
    Yea Magic won two Finals and two MVPs (one belonging to Kareem), but Bird still managed to win a title with a team that was terrible before him, adding Parish and McHale (who was still young and not playing much) in his 2nd year. Can't see how Magic is REALLY better, in any way. Plus in the regular season it's easily Bird and that means something also.

    I won't go against that, but it was close and Worthy had that amazing decisive game 7, much close than Magic to Kareem in 1980. What Kareem did in 5 games in the 80 Finals (not to mention the rest of the playoffs and so on) was more impactful and better than what Magic did in 6. There wouldn't even be a game 6 if it wasn't for Kareem, and he would've returned in game 7 to finish them and continue the destruction. Plus Wilkes also had an amazing game 6 that goes overlooked.

    I've watched those games, Bird struggled in plenty of them with his shooting while Maxwell scored like 2.5 ppg more than Bird, much more efficient from the field, was more clutch and consistent than Bird as far as scoring throughout the series, but Bird easily trumps in every other aspect, he put up 15 rebounds, 7 assts, 2.3 blocks and 0.5, always grittier and tougher playing better D.
    Many of Cedric's (easy) points came from Bird's playmaking and from Larry getting all the attention, no superstar talent on that team or close besides him, Parish was solid not much, Tiny played like crap.
    Bird put up 27/13/5 on 11/20 from the field in the decisive game 6, clutch as hell in the 4th, leading the celtics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoXOAs4Gz5A
    He could've easily gotten FMVP.

    Are you gonna overlook the fact that Bird badly injured his hand in a bar fight during the 1985 playoffs, there's not much to say about it, still averaged 24/9/5 on 45/33/85. In 1984 he completely destroyed the Lakers with every teammate really underperforming, think it would be any different in 1985 if he was healthy? Still Kareem had to had one of GOAT Finals in 1985 for the Lakers to beat the Celtics.
    In 87 the Celtics were dealing with injuries and had no bench whatsoever, Bird played 40.6 mpg in the rs and 44.1 in the ps, having some of the most gruelsome series ever before the Finals, see what he did vs the Pistons for example, they wouldn't even get to the Finals if he wasn't for him giving his all and playing like crazy, while the Lakers just had to coast on their way to the Finals. Leading them the Celtics still took one of the GOAT teams to 6 games, Bird still put up 24/10/6 on 45/50/92.
    Are you really gonna compare Worthy to Bird? Worthy had like only one series where he matches up to Bird as far as scoring when Bird had an injured hand, Bird much better in every other aspect always and he was 1st option, getting much more attention.

    Bird's domination at the position not that long? Lmao gtfo, when he was healthy(er), 1980-1988, he was always all-nba 1st, 7 times top 2 in MVP, completely changed the Celtics to much better, playing in the goat era, playing in the goat era for Sf's, in the goat conference, plenty of times teammates underperforming, plenty of times playing against better teams on paper.
    Last edited by SHAQisGOAT; 05-12-2013 at 09:16 PM.

  7. #67
    NBA Superstar eliteballer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Please post their total averages of the 3 head to head finals they played in and keep in mind Magic was 3 Years younger and won 2 out of 3

  8. #68
    Decent playground baller zass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?


  9. #69
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Legends66NBA7

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    As far as Bird's '88 season, it was one of his best, with the only decline at all appearing to be at the defensive end to some extent. But he got in better shape entering that season and his offensive game was at it's peak as it had been the last few years due to extensive work on his shooting and individual moves over the first half of his career.

    As far as an explanation for Bird's playoff series vs Detroit, well, here's what was said by commentators during the games in both the Atlanta and Detroit series as well as quotes I've read from Bird himself.

    What was talked about a lot with Boston that year. They had virtually no bench at all. If you look in the playoffs, 3 of their 5 starters played 40+ mpg with Bird averaging 45 mpg, a 4th starter averaging 39.4 mpg and Robert Parish averaging 36.8 mpg. Bird also had to carry Boston more during the first month of the series since McHale didn't play until December.

    They were also coming off of 4 consecutive deep playoff runs to the finals, and fatigue was also talked about after the 7 game series vs Atlanta as well as Bird apparently being sick early in the Detroit series.

    Regarding Bird's shooting struggles, Bird himself said he was second-guessing his shots at time. I think it was fatigue at first, but that the slump also got into his head. If you watch the series, you'll see at times that Bird took a few uncharacteristic shots for him, which even the commentators noted, as well as the fact that he didn't look as comfortable shooting at times.

    Don't get me wrong, Bird does deserve criticism for shooting 35%, especially in series that would have been winnable despite Detroit's depth if Bird had shot decently. Just trying to provide a little insight into how prime Bird shot just 35% in a series, especially after a season he had averaged 30/9/6 on 53/41/92 shooting which is hard to imagine. Though I will say that Bird played very well in every other area. He passed well as usual, he defended Dantley well and played good team defense and he rebounded very well. The Celtics still needed Bird to shoot much better so it's still a poor series for him, but he was impressive in other areas.

    Here are a couple of excerpts from an article about Bird's slump.

    A cabdriver outside Boston Garden said he had heard reports that Larry Bird had undergone tests for mononucleosis.

    A bellhop at the hotel said: ''Do you notice how tired Bird looks? I haven't seen him looking this way since the Celtics were swept by the Milwaukee Bucks in the 1983 conference semifinal.''

    What prompted such speculation among Celtic fans was Bird's second successive poor shooting performance, Thursday night in the Eastern Conference final against the Detroit Pistons. Bird was 8 for 20 from the floor in Game 1 Wednesday night, and the Celtics suffered a rare home loss, 104-96. On Thursday, he shot 6 for 20, and the Celtics needed two overtimes to pull out a 119-115 victory and send the series to Detroit tied, 1-1.

    Before the Celtics won, they set up Bird twice to try to win the game. Most times, Bird, one of the best clutch shooters in basketball, comes through. But he failed on a 17-foot jumper with 10 seconds remaining in regulation time and was called for traveling in the first overtime with the score tied, 109-109. Unusual Route to Victory
    ''I don't know what Larry's problem is,'' said K. C. Jones, the Celtic coach, after the game Thursday night. ''His arm motion does not look familiar to me when he's firing it up. He had one of the poorest outside shooting nights I've ever seen him have.''

    Bird and the people around him deny any health problems. But Bird has never made excuses for poor games. After several poor-shooting games in the series against the Atlanta Hawks, Bird was repeatedly asked if he had a head cold. He denied it, although it was obvious that he had one.

    When asked again Thursday night if anything was troubling him, Bird said: ''I feel great. I played hard on the defensive end. I was just second-guessing my shots. I was getting my usual picks but I was thinking whether I should shoot or pass.''
    http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/28/sp...his-slump.html

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by SHAQisGOAT
    Bird was the better player, Magic did more winning but for the most part he had better teammates than Bird, the East was stronger (GOAT conference) and Sf's the same (GOAT era for Sf's), also that 1980 FMVP belonging to Kareem.

    Bird was pretty much always the better player when they were both healthy, better peak also.
    Bird was always considered the better player when they were both healthy, only time Magic beat him as far as MVP voting was in 1987.
    When Bird got to the Celtics they were one of the worst teams in the league, Magic had a top3 GOAT in Kareem close to his peak, a really good and underrated PG in Nixon to learn from, and guys like Wilkes.
    Bird got them from 2nd worst to best record, Finals in his 2nd year with the major addition of Parish, McHale only start to really break out like in 1984 and by 1987 had career ending injuries, Parish was pretty good, great longevity and consistent but you weren't getting more than his usual.




    lmao
    Bird killed the Lakers in the 1984 despite his teammates (worse than Magic's) underperforming like a lot, with Magic choking.
    Still great in 1985 despite hand injury.
    Still took them to 6 games in 1987, already with back issues, and no team to compete.
    uh.. the celtics probably had the best front court in nba history during this time frame..

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Bird is better.

    Magic isn't even the best Laker in that Showtime teams - Kareem was. So Magic's success is due to the fact that he rode a GOAT's coattail. Plus his rings after David Stern took office are all tainted and asterisked.

    The only things Magic is better than Bird is passing and getting AIDS.

  13. #73
    In GawdBe We Trust KOBE143's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
    Yet, I am supposed to believe a Bird would be nothing more than a Scalabrine in today's NBA?

    Makes no sense. Didn't Bird play in an era of MJ, Dr.J, Magic, Isaiah, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem, Dominque, etc? And yet he was considered the best player in the league in a few of those seasons? But then, perhaps, mayeb you are suggesting that all of those guys would be scrubs in today's NBA.
    No doubt, Bird was a great player in his era.. That's why he's one of the candidate for GOAT era-specific player.. The problem with era-specific player are they're only great in their era.. Their game would not transcend in any era unlike all time great player like Magic, MJ, Hakeem, KAJ... Most of the era-specific player came from the 50s, 60s and the most known era-specific player in that era were Bill Russel and Wilt Chamberlain..
    Quote Originally Posted by LAZERUSS
    Maybe someone can explain "era-specific player" to me.
    I know you're a smart poster from April 2013 batch.. Hopes you already understand what is an era-specific player..

  14. #74
    I make 50-feet jumpers Odinn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by eliteballer
    Please post their total averages of the 3 head to head finals they played in and keep in mind Magic was 3 Years younger and won 2 out of 3
    Why are you acting like an idiot constantly?

    Aside from 1984 Finals, the Celtics had no depth in their bench. So does Bird. Especially 1987 Finals, the Celtics had no bench literally. They were just throwing some players(garbage-time players mostly) to the field so the main guys can rest.

    Also Bird and the Celtics were getting roughed up by the strong ECF teams and some serious matchups (Erving and Wilkins are first ones that came to mind), the West was a joke back then. They didn't have a bench and they got to the Finals with expending much more energy.


    But here is the numbers;
    Bird; 42.1 mpg 25.3 ppg 11.1 rpg 4.6 apg 1.7 spg 1.0 bpg 2.9 tpg 19.2 fga 8.1 fta on .475 efg .864 ft (29.3 eff)
    Magic; 40.3 mpg 20.7 ppg 7.5 rpg 11.9 apg 2.2 spg 0.4 bpg 3.4 tpg 15.2 fga 5.2 fta on .536 efg .778 ft (31.1 eff)


    But if I know about somethings about uncontrolled fans like you, you will not change your attitude and say some bs about their mpg.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Larry Bird vs Magic Johnson - Who was the better player All Time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn
    Why are you acting like an idiot constantly?
    He's not. He's a kobetard. He's a real idiot.

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