Looking back at the 2011-2014 Heat

[catch24]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?

[dubeta]

Ummm don't know really..

[christian1923]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?

Every player in the top 25

[Nash]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?

find me somebody who can lead that team in points, assists and rebounds while also defending 1-4.
Then maybe.

[DMV2]

Still playing in a cakewalk conference?

I think even a guy like T-MAC would have lead the Heat to the Finals. Wouldn't have won back-to-back but 5 straight Finals in the weakest conference of all-time isn't that impressive.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Every player in the top 25

I wouldn't go that far, but definitely most of the Top 15-20.

Far as today's players, I'm pretty sure KD and Melo could've gotten at least 1 chip. Durant would have probably equaled LeBron's success tbh (not saying much in a weak conference).

[DMAVS41]

Well balanced team who were great for their time. Win streaks... Finals appearances... Championships... Hypothetically speaking, if you were to replace LeBron, which superstar players (historically) would've also made 4 Finals appearances and win at least 2 championships?

Probably a few, but not quite as many as people think.

Most superstars win in 11. That was an all time loaded and talented team.

So, in this hypothetical, you just have to grant them winning in 11.



Now, the tough part comes in 12, 13, and 14.

The problem with 12 is that Bosh got hurt and beating the Celtics is hardly a lock. In fact, the Heat were down after 5 games in that series. In those first 5 games Lebron averaged 32/10/4 56% TS. So most likely any superstar is going to be down 2-3 in that series.

So the question is how many can get that team to win the last 2....including one on the road....and then after that....beat a very good Thunder team in the finals.

I honestly don't know the answer here....very difficult to put a percentage on this. Lebron was at the peak of his powers, imo, in 12....and I'm not sure many guys in NBA history are winning under those circumstances with Bosh hurt.


13/14....I think this is a bit easier. I think the most anyone wins here is 1. With the average being slightly less than 1 probably in that sense. Meaning...I think most superstars end up not beating the Spurs either way, but enough beat them once to make it pretty even.


So in all:

11 - Lock
12 - Possible, but not probable
13/14 - 1 max...average less than 1


So, depending on the player, I think the max is 3 titles...minimum is 1. Average likely 2 or slightly less than 2.

Put simply....the Heat/Lebron did not do anything you wouldn't have expected given their circumstances if you replaced Lebron with some of the best 20 or so players in NBA history in their primes/peaks.

Doesn't mean Lebron isn't and wasn't great. Doesn't mean he's only a top 20 players. Just means the results from those Heat teams were in line, slightly under imo, the expectations you'd have for most superstars given teams like that playing under those circumstances.

[DMV2]

'15 - a 60+ Hawks team lead by Paul Millsap, he didn't become a full-time starter caliber player until 2012.

'13 and '14 - Overrated ass Pacers
'12 - Rondo-led Celtics team w a bunch of over-the-hill players.
'11 - The worst ever MVP-led Bulls

[GIF REACTION]

They were favored only once in the 4 finals

[Hey Yo]

Still playing in a cakewalk conference?

I think even a guy like T-MAC would have lead the Heat to the Finals. Wouldn't have won back-to-back but 5 straight Finals in the weakest conference of all-time isn't that impressive.

Yet Magic went to 8 Finals in 10 years (in a much weaker conference but with much better teammates) and gets noting but praise.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Probably a few, but not quite as many as people think.

Most superstars win in 11. That was an all time loaded and talented team.

So, in this hypothetical, you just have to grant them winning in 11.



Now, the tough part comes in 12, 13, and 14.

The problem with 12 is that Bosh got hurt and beating the Celtics is hardly a lock. In fact, the Heat were down after 5 games in that series. In those first 5 games Lebron averaged 32/10/4 56% TS. So most likely any superstar is going to be down 2-3 in that series.

So the question is how many can get that team to win the last 2....including one on the road....and then after that....beat a very good Thunder team in the finals.

I honestly don't know the answer here....very difficult to put a percentage on this. Lebron was at the peak of his powers, imo, in 12....and I'm not sure many guys in NBA history are winning under those circumstances with Bosh hurt.


13/14....I think this is a bit easier. I think the most anyone wins here is 1. With the average being slightly less than 1 probably in that sense. Meaning...I think most superstars end up not beating the Spurs either way, but enough beat them once to make it pretty even.


So in all:

11 - Lock
12 - Possible, but not probable
13/14 - 1 max...average less than 1


So, depending on the player, I think the max is 3 titles...minimum is 1. Average likely 2 or slightly less than 2.

Put simply....the Heat/Lebron did not do anything you wouldn't have expected given their circumstances if you replaced Lebron with some of the best 20 or so players in NBA history in their primes/peaks.

Doesn't mean Lebron isn't and wasn't great. Doesn't mean he's only a top 20 players. Just means the results from those Heat teams were in line, slightly under imo, the expectations you'd have for most superstars given teams like that playing under those circumstances.

Agreed with pretty much all of this

I think conferences play a huge factor as well (people praising the 4 finals appearances), so good point on the "expected success".

LeBron is LeBron, but some of the best players would've thrived in that type of environment...coming out with a bundle of accomplishments.

[Hey Yo]

Most superstars win in 11. That was an all time loaded and talented team.

With Bibby's corpse and Joel Anthony in the starting lineup?

Not much talent outside of Wade, James and Bosh.

[DMV2]

Yet Magic went to 8 Finals in 10 years (in a much weaker conference but with much better teammates) and gets noting but praise.

He won like 5 of those trips though. Plus, legendary rivalry with Bird & the Celtics that gave the league primetime TV slot.

Meanwhile, Bran is having a "rivalry" with 35-year-old Tim Duncan and getting his legacy saved by a 35-year-old Ray Allen.

[Hey Yo]

'15 - a 60+ Hawks team lead by Paul Millsap, he didn't become a full-time starter caliber player until 2012.

'13 and '14 - Overrated ass Pacers
'12 - Rondo-led Celtics team w a bunch of over-the-hill players.
'11 - The worst ever MVP-led Bulls

Yet they swept the Heat in the regular season and was favored over the Heat in the series.

[PJR]

4 Straight NBA Finals, back to back titles, and a 27 game win streak (best since the merger), is an impressive run anyway you slice it.