Wilt vs Kareem 1972 WCF stats from rare available footage

[julizaver]

I have found recently a rare footage from Wilt vs Kareem in youtube - the user 70sFan claims to have available footage from Game 3, 4 and 6 and posted clips about these games with Wilt vs Kareem mostly 1 on 1 situations. I watched the clips and make the stats mostly about Kareem's shooting when guarded by Wilt (I credited Kareem with jumpshots where Wilt was also nearby or in front of him). I keep one stat for shooting and one for Kareem's hooks, as this was his signature shot. We all know that Wilt played mostly defense in his last two seasons. The more I watched the more astonished I was. I know that it is not the complete picture and we all have the boxscores from those game, where Kareem filled the statsheet, but here is the stats from the clips:

Game 3 Kareem shot 4 - 12 when guarded by Wilt, making 1 hook from 6 hook shots (1-6). Lakers won the close game.
Game 4 Kareem shot 7 - 16 when guarded by Wilt, making 2 hook shots from 9 attempts (2-9) Bucks blowout win.
Game 6 Kareem shot 5 - 16 when guarded by Wilt, making 3 hook shots from 12 (3-12) attempts. Lakers won the series. The footage is with good quality.

The total is Kareem shot 16 from 44 vs Wilt ( 36,4 % ) and 6 from 27 (22, 2 %) from hooks shots. I am leaving the comments to you, but what surprised me is the amount of missed hooks, obviosly Kareem was not comfortable with Wilt chalenging his hooks.

Of course to have the full picture we have to watch the whole games from these series, but it is still not available (the Game 6 according to 70sfan is around 20 minutes from AP). I am posting the clips so every one can see and check for himself.

Game 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM7baVV3CbQ
Game 4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eU2pF8gN8s
Game 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYhxvZ7EmVY (good quality and slow motion)

I have read a ton of articles about this rivalry and compiled a lot of stats about it, but to see it on film is another thing.
As a sidenote almost the whole footage of the game from 1972 season, which ended Lakers 33 game losing streak is available on youtube (without 2 minutes), and Kareem's blocked shots and rebounding numbers were inflated (the game is in Milwaukee), while Wilt's were according to the footage (maybe I counted 1 or 2 rebounds more, should find my notes), so we should take with a grain of salt the rebounding and blocking stats (unofficial at the time).

Additional shot blocking stats from the clips (it was was not priority to me, may have missed something - when having time will rewatch again the clips):
Game 3 - Wilt 7 blocks (3 vs Kareem), Kareem 1 block
Game 4 - Wilt 1 block, Kareem 4 blocks (2 vs Wilt)
Game 6 - Wilt 4 blocks (2 vs Kareem plus 3 steals), Kareem 2 blocks (1 vs Wilt)
Again this is not the whole games, just from the clips - also in Game 3 clip you can see on the screen stat crediting Wilt with 9 blocked shots.

[Kblaze8855]

What always amazes me is right before this happens:








When a 35-36 year old 7’1” 300 pound post knee injury washed up Wilt is sprinting back on d like a 20 year old wing…..

They are talking about how much slower and less coordinated he is these days. They keep going on about it. Him being slower and clumsy compared to the old days. And he runs the floor like prime athletic guards.

That guy at like 265 in his early 20s would be an absolute terror running the floor these days. He’s the type that could actually play how Shaq always wanted Dwight Howard to if he wanted to score 30. Best other bigs down the floor, post up deep early in the play, and clean up misses and dunk. He was such an athletic marvel he’d score today even if teams didn’t set out to post him up. He’d be ridiculous rolling to the basket on offense while he focused on defense…which is what he’d want to do.

Hed probably be a far more athletic Gobert on defense but scoring 23+ just off physical ability and running. Add in that he could pass? A modern coach would love to have that toy to play with.

[Jasper]

please remember Kareem was young and did not have to play Wilt consistently.

1971 when Bucks won it , he was playing against the Bullets defense Unseld , and Johnson)
Wilt was still agile , and his experience pretty much dominated Kareem (24 years old) .

If it would of been 5 years later with Kareem and 7 years experience , and Wilt at his age at 1972 (kareem would of dominated him)

[julizaver]

please remember Kareem was young and did not have to play Wilt consistently.

1971 when Bucks won it , he was playing against the Bullets defense Unseld , and Johnson)
Wilt was still agile , and his experience pretty much dominated Kareem (24 years old) .

If it would of been 5 years later with Kareem and 7 years experience , and Wilt at his age at 1972 (kareem would of dominated him)

Isn't it more fare if we put Kareem in his year 7 vs Wilt in his year 7 (Sixers Wilt in 1966 ) ? Anyway Kareem was already considered NBA best player by his second season (some already after his first half rookie season), and in april 1972 he turns 25 which means he is at the height of his physical abilities, and at his best statistical season. The quickness of Kareem is one of the things that bothered aged Wilt more than Kareem strength (he put some muscles by 1977).

[dankok8]

Honestly from watching Game 3/4/6 on YouTube (what 70's fan has) I am more impressed by 1972 Kareem than ever. Yes Wilt forced him into some tough shots but the man was dominant. If anything he was the one crashing the offensive glass which is kind of opposite of the whole "Wilt bullied him." narrative that is prevalent about that series. Kareem's motor was quite insane.

[julizaver]

Honestly from watching Game 3/4/6 on YouTube (what 70's fan has) I am more impressed by 1972 Kareem than ever. Yes Wilt forced him into some tough shots but the man was dominant. If anything he was the one crashing the offensive glass which is kind of opposite of the whole "Wilt bullied him." narrative that is prevalent about that series. Kareem's motor was quite insane.

I was impressed with Kareem quickness which gave him the opportunity to score on tip-ins and the ability to score from outside the paint with jumpshots, but the amount of missed hooks and Wilt's defensive plays makes me count this. I admited Kareem been more versatile on offense and did not count out Wilt's FTs issues. Unwhile the whole game footages are unearthed I am not to claim that Kareem dominated old Wilt in those series. Kareem took a ton of shots against Wilt and missed too much of them (especially hooks) based on the available clips.

[dankok8]

I was impressed with Kareem quickness which gave him the opportunity to score on tip-ins and the ability to score from outside the paint with jumpshots, but the amount of missed hooks and Wilt's defensive plays makes me count this. I admited Kareem been more versatile on offense and did not count out Wilt's FTs issues. Unwhile the whole game footages are unearthed I am not to claim that Kareem dominated old Wilt in those series. Kareem took a ton of shots against Wilt and missed too much of them (especially hooks) based on the available clips.

We should note that Kareem actually wasn't too inefficient relative to league averages. In the 1972 WCF, he averaged 33.7 ppg on -2.2 rTS which isn't bad at all. It's obviously not the 40.2 ppg on +3.3 rTS that he averaged on Wilt in the regular season or the 34.8 ppg on +9.9 rTS that he averaged that whole season but those latter two scoring lines are batshit insane. Wilt slowed him down but Kareem still got his and some in the big scheme of things.

Also worth noting that the Lakers as a team shot 45.8 %TS in the 1972 WCF and it's hard to conclude Kareem's efficiency cost the Bucks that series when he shot 48.2 %TS.

[kawhileonard2]

please remember Kareem was young and did not have to play Wilt consistently.

1971 when Bucks won it , he was playing against the Bullets defense Unseld , and Johnson)
Wilt was still agile , and his experience pretty much dominated Kareem (24 years old) .

If it would of been 5 years later with Kareem and 7 years experience , and Wilt at his age at 1972 (kareem would of dominated him)

Agreed!

[julizaver]

We should note that Kareem actually wasn't too inefficient relative to league averages. In the 1972 WCF, he averaged 33.7 ppg on -2.2 rTS which isn't bad at all. It's obviously not the 40.2 ppg on +3.3 rTS that he averaged on Wilt in the regular season or the 34.8 ppg on +9.9 rTS that he averaged that whole season but those latter two scoring lines are batshit insane. Wilt slowed him down but Kareem still got his and some in the big scheme of things.

Also worth noting that the Lakers as a team shot 45.8 %TS in the 1972 WCF and it's hard to conclude Kareem's efficiency cost the Bucks that series when he shot 48.2 %TS.

I am not the one to blame Kareem for Bucks failure - it is rather the injuries to Oscar Robertson who prevented him to play at his standards, which hurt Bucks chances more. But if the efficiently scoring champion (57.7 %) is held under 40 % by opposing center when matched one on one and his indefensible shot is challenged and not going I am not going to acknowledge his volume numbers as domination. The same with Lebron vs GSW in 2015. And I also consider (as most experts at the time) that Kareem was the best player in NBA evidently by second MVP in a row. In 1972 season it was his third and best statistical season (the same as Wilt Chamberlain's, Michael Jordan's). He had playoff and championship experience. He was indeed in his prime, and the argument that he was too young (he turned 25 in April 1972) is not valid for me. Of course he gained more muscles in the years later and was more mature in the next few years, but the same is valid for Wilt and MJ (Wilt was also skinny in 1959-60). I did not heard someone saying that Wilt in 1962 was not in his prime or MJ in 1988. I read that maybe Wilt was at his peak in Sixers (let's say 1967) and MJ considered his peak in 1991 (during dinner with Bryant), but this were part of their prime years. Maybe a mature Kareem was not going to play every minute of the game, maybe he would no try so many shots and have better shot selection - we do not know, but putting matured Kareem in the ''72 Kareem's shoes, which means the same Bucks team I think that the outcome will be probably the same (because of Oscar's struggles).

[julizaver]

I will just add that while we considered Wilt's knee injury as something as the end of his prime, I have read that Wilt himself said that under Maloney (1971) they played the best team defense, but his knee was sore at the time and that in 1972 he was feeling better than the two years prior. He was also playing beach volley as part of his rehabilitation process.

[nayte]

Thanks for the footage. That was cool to watch.
I saw post play to the perimeter shot .while not threes .no doubt they could play in this era and be just as strong

[dankok8]

I am not the one to blame Kareem for Bucks failure - it is rather the injuries to Oscar Robertson who prevented him to play at his standards, which hurt Bucks chances more. But if the efficiently scoring champion (57.7 %) is held under 40 % by opposing center when matched one on one and his indefensible shot is challenged and not going I am not going to acknowledge his volume numbers as domination. The same with Lebron vs GSW in 2015. And I also consider (as most experts at the time) that Kareem was the best player in NBA evidently by second MVP in a row. In 1972 season it was his third and best statistical season (the same as Wilt Chamberlain's, Michael Jordan's). He had playoff and championship experience. He was indeed in his prime, and the argument that he was too young (he turned 25 in April 1972) is not valid for me. Of course he gained more muscles in the years later and was more mature in the next few years, but the same is valid for Wilt and MJ (Wilt was also skinny in 1959-60). I did not heard someone saying that Wilt in 1962 was not in his prime or MJ in 1988. I read that maybe Wilt was at his peak in Sixers (let's say 1967) and MJ considered his peak in 1991 (during dinner with Bryant), but this were part of their prime years. Maybe a mature Kareem was not going to play every minute of the game, maybe he would no try so many shots and have better shot selection - we do not know, but putting matured Kareem in the ''72 Kareem's shoes, which means the same Bucks team I think that the outcome will be probably the same (because of Oscar's struggles).

I agree with this. Oscar's injury was the biggest reason for the Bucks' loss but another big part of the reason is the greatness of the Lakers. LA was incredibly dominant this year and this might have been one of the greatest clashes in NBA history and one team had to come away victorious.

But not sure what you mean by under 40%... Kareem shot 46% from the field in the series.

[Duderonomy]

Kareem might be the only player to get the better of Wilt head to head. Of course he was much younger, prime Wilt would be a different story.

[julizaver]

I agree with this. Oscar's injury was the biggest reason for the Bucks' loss but another big part of the reason is the greatness of the Lakers. LA was incredibly dominant this year and this might have been one of the greatest clashes in NBA history and one team had to come away victorious.

But not sure what you mean by under 40%... Kareem shot 46% from the field in the series.

I mean the stats based on clips on the occasions Kareem and Wilt were 1 on 1 or in close proximity without another player between them:

Game 3 Kareem shot 4 - 12 when guarded by Wilt, making 1 hook from 6 hook shots (1-6). Lakers won the close game.
Game 4 Kareem shot 7 - 16 when guarded by Wilt, making 2 hook shots from 9 attempts (2-9) Bucks blowout win.
Game 6 Kareem shot 5 - 16 when guarded by Wilt, making 3 hook shots from 12 (3-12) attempts. Lakers won the series. The footage is with good quality.

The total is Kareem shot 16 from 44 vs Wilt ( 36,4 % ) and 6 from 27 (22, 2 %) from hooks shots

[julizaver]

Kareem might be the only player to get the better of Wilt head to head. Of course he was much younger, prime Wilt would be a different story.

Acknowledged by Wilt himself. He said that for the first time in his career he feels that he would might need help in guarding Kareem.