Dirk is better than KG.

[Pointguard]

So I want to get this straight. You are saying that the 08 Celtics outside of KG were worse than the 11 Mavs outside of Dirk.

Please answer.

No. But I am saying KG's team won on defense - which btw, Dirk's team did too if you look at the scores, and KG defensive presence and offense was a bigger part of the pie than Dirk's timely offense was. KG also was the main scorer throughout the playoffs for the Celtics. KG told the defense how to move and trap. The perimeter players were instructed to channel their players toward KG. Who ultimately kept players out of the paint.

[DMAVS41]

No. But I am saying KG's team won on defense - which btw, Dirk's team did too if you look at the scores, and KG defensive presence and offense was a bigger part of the pie than Dirk's timely offense was. KG also was the main scorer throughout the playoffs for the Celtics. KG told the defense how to move and trap. The perimeter players were instructed to channel their players toward KG. Who ultimately kept players out of the paint.

So isn't that just another way of saying that you would put a different team around each of them? Who cares how they won?

Objectively I think it's pretty obvious that KG's team was better, but that doesn't even matter because all you are saying is that these players need different players around them. Which is just obvious.

The reason I brought up Duncan earlier...was that you seem to think KG could have pulled off what Duncan did in 03 or what Hakeem did in 94. And I could never imagine a KG led team without another star player winning a title. But obviously Hakeem and Duncan did it...and they are on another level for me.

So if you are putting KG on that level...then these arguments make a lot more sense. But if you aren't...and there really is zero evidence that he is...then all you are arguing for is that Dirk requires a different team around him than KG. Which is again...just obvious.

By the way...if the Mavs won on defense...then you have to give Dirk some credit for that. He played something like 39 minutes a game. Terry played 33 minutes a game (awful defender...much worse than Dirk)...Barea...no defensive impact. Peja...no defensive impact. Chandler only played like 32 minutes a game. You have Stevenson who was solid (15 mpg)...and Kidd and Marion. So either the team combined to play quality defense by scheme like Tpols and I said...or somehow, by magic I guess...a team that played Dirk / Terry / Peja / Barea a combined 110 minutes (all poor defenders according to you) got lucky other teams missed shots or some nonsense

[DMAVS41]

I don't know there??? Prime Wade is a better scorer than Dirk? Dirk would lead in rebounds.

You got stuck in the mud... . I was talking about the tax of players that have to do everything for their teams to win. Dirk can score and rebound. He's not leading the team in anything else. He's a two prong player.

No you said this in the regular season, when the argument was for MVP, in the regular season, when Rose was the games best clutch shooter in the game - Dirk included. Rose's team turned around more 4th quarters wins than any other team.

And you were adamant about this: That the Bulls were a defensive team that rebounded well. DRose, who was the third best rebounding point guard and created a great situation for offensive rebounds with his penetration. And held every star guard in check that year and the best one's far below their averages/percentages. The team had the best record. He lead all PG in scoring. Only player top ten in assist and ppg. Was first in PG blocks that year. In Dirk's MVP year he couldn't dream of leading PF's in rebounding or being top ten in anything outside of scoring.

At that time, before the 2011 playoffs, Rose had participated in one of the best playoff series ever with Boston and was guarded by Lebron the year before that, and shot better in his career playoffs than Dirk did in his career when he had offensive help. Somebody opened that thread up not to long ago.

You did a 360 when it came around to Dirk - Three months later. Lebron Wade Kobe and Durant all of whom will have some stake in being three greatest playoff players at their position EVER were stopped. Something that Chicago couldn't do. But Dirk who was still primarily a scorer should get all of the credit for carrying "a team misfits." that's what you called them, while Rose played a bigger role on his team during the regular season than Dirk did in the playoffs, and YOU said Rose's team carried him. Remind you Rose had more of the scoring burden and more of the clutch burden that Dirk would later on. 360's don't come better than that. Chickens came home to roost for you on that one.

I can't even follow this. Rose had more help than Dirk in 11. He just wasn't as good as Dirk...painfully obvious at this point.

And stop making the point about what taxing things a player has to do to win. It makes no sense. You can't have it both ways. You can't readily admit that the current Heat would be by far the best team Dirk would ever have....and then turn around and say he's lesser of a player because of the tax it would take to win.

It is so funny...because the whole "taxing" thing is making my argument again for me. Dirk impacts the game in a much greater way than you give him credit for and that is what is missing.

I just love it. The Mavs were a team of misfits. Nobody wanted guys like Marion and Stevenson and Barea and Peja...hell...nobody wanted Chandler. And Dirk won with them...but somehow it counts less than when a guy like Kobe or Lebron or KG win with clearly better help? WTF are you on?

And to the Rose thing a bit more. Rose was dreadful against Miami...even before his inept 4th qtr play. But somehow the guy that has to do everything could play like ass all game and his team would still be right there late in games. Funny how that works...and the difference between Rose and Dirk at that point was that a Dirk led team wouldn't crumble in crunch time the way the Bulls Did....

But Rose had to do everything...yet somehow when he did everything poorly...his team still was right there with the Heat...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Odinn]

DMAVS41, I suggest that just put Pointguard to your ignore list.

Garnett's offense; 8 - Garnett's defense; 8
Nowitzki's offense; 9 - Nowitzki's defense; 5
Moses' offense; 9 - Moses' defense; 5
That's why Garnett > Nowitzki and Moses in his opinion. One of the most ridicilous.

It's just the way how he is handling the debates. He's not capable of understanding and making a healthy judgement of impact.

[Pointguard]

So isn't that just another way of saying that you would put a different team around each of them? Who cares how they won?

Objectively I think it's pretty obvious that KG's team was better, but that doesn't even matter because all you are saying is that these players need different players around them. Which is just obvious.

The reason I brought up Duncan earlier...was that you seem to think KG could have pulled off what Duncan did in 03 or what Hakeem did in 94. And I could never imagine a KG led team without another star player winning a title. But obviously Hakeem and Duncan did it...and they are on another level for me.

So if you are putting KG on that level...then these arguments make a lot more sense. But if you aren't...and there really is zero evidence that he is...then all you are arguing for is that Dirk requires a different team around him than KG. Which is again...just obvious.

Neither Duncan or Hakeem win in Minny. The team was neither offensively or defensively designed. I do think KG wins with Pop and Cuban. I think Dirk wins with Pop too.

By the way...if the Mavs won on defense...then you have to give Dirk some credit for that. He played something like 39 minutes a game. Terry played 33 minutes a game (awful defender...much worse than Dirk)...Barea...no defensive impact. Peja...no defensive impact. Chandler only played like 32 minutes a game. You have Stevenson who was solid (15 mpg)...and Kidd and Marion. So either the team combined to play quality defense by scheme like Tpols and I said...or somehow, by magic I guess...a team that played Dirk / Terry / Peja / Barea a combined 110 minutes (all poor defenders according to you) got lucky other teams missed shots or some nonsense

Point is that Kidd/Marion/Stephenson/Chandler did a defensive job I would compare to anybody's in the history of the game. Perimeter scorers in this era are harder to stop than centers in the 90's. Maybe you too believe it was luck???

[DMAVS41]

Neither Duncan or Hakeem win in Minny. The team was neither offensively or defensively designed. I do think KG wins with Pop and Cuban. I think Dirk wins with Pop too.


Point is that Kidd/Marion/Stephenson/Chandler did a defensive job I would compare to anybody's in the history of the game. Perimeter scorers in this era are harder to stop than centers in the 90's. Maybe you too believe it was luck???

They played the best defense in the history of the game? What an absurd statement. But lets pretend that is true. That means that a team with Dirk playing by far this most minutes can be part of a team that played aruably the best defense in the history of the game (your words)...

So Dirk simply can't be the no impact defensive player you claim...not to mention the fact that guys like Terry, Barea, and Peja are just objectively poor defensive players. Certainly Terry and Peja are...

So I ask again. Are you somehow missing some key things that make Dirk as great as the results have shown?

I don't know if Hakeem or Duncan would have won in Minny...I'd bet my life they have more success than KG did though. And it wouldn't shock me to see one of them find a way to get by the Lakers in 04. And why do we just give KG a pass for series like 02 against the Mavs? If he's so great and so capable of dominating both ends..etc. Why did his team get run so easily? Before the series KG was talking shit about locking up Dirk and plenty of people thought the Wolves might win....certainly in Dallas people thought that.

So where is this huge impact? All I see is a great player in KG that needed as much help as everyone else to win. He's done nothing out of the ordinary to warrant your claims.

And you already admitted that the 08 Celtics were better. So lets try this a different way;

Tell me which superstars had less help than Dirk en route to winning the title in the last 30 years. Please answer.

Also, I'd understand this if Dirk's team in 11 was the first sign of success or something. Again...we are talking about 11 straight seasons over 50 wins. 2 trips to the finals...3 trips to the wcf...a title. Doing so in a conference where each year at least 1 other team had more talent and better coaching. A conference of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Kings, Suns, Thunder....

How did he do it? He doesn't do much....but somehow every team he's played on when healthy (his entire career essentially) was over 50 wins...different players, different coaches, different systems, different roles...

But it's all luck...

[Pointguard]

DMAVS41, I suggest that just put Pointguard to your ignore list.

Garnett's offense; 8 - Garnett's defense; 8
Nowitzki's offense; 9 - Nowitzki's defense; 5
Moses' offense; 9 - Moses' defense; 5
That's why Garnett > Nowitzki and Moses in his opinion. One of the most ridicilous.

It's just the way how he is handling the debates. He's not capable of understanding and making a healthy judgement of impact.

Whoa, Odinn watch your mouth. I never disrespected you.

You're the guy who got upset when I showed you that KG was a much better defensive rebounder than Malone??? And if you saw Malone play you know that he had these crazy inflated offensive rebounding numbers? That his shooting percentage was a lot lower than point guards were at the time. And you were trying to act like Malone had all of the deep playoff runs when he didn't? At least defend yourself if you are going to tell people to not listen to somebody else. So why don't you show people how great your healthy judgment of impact was, you certainly acted like you never saw him play.

You didn't show any understanding and to be honest you didn't even take a stand... and then you are going to talk about other people's judgment and assessment qualities??? When you didn't even answer back if I recall right. But hey suit yourself. You're rarely raise your hand and when you do it comes out like this.

[Pointguard]

They played the best defense in the history of the game? What an absurd statement. But lets pretend that is true. That means that a team with Dirk playing by far this most minutes can be part of a team that played aruably the best defense in the history of the game (your words)...

Simple question. Name me a perimeter player that had to guard quality players on the level of Lebron/Durant? or Wade who had one of the best finals ever and Kobe? Don't make it confusing. Answer the simple question.

I don't know if Hakeem or Duncan would have won in Minny...I'd bet my life they have more success than KG did though. And it wouldn't shock me to see one of them find a way to get by the Lakers in 04. And why do we just give KG a pass for series like 02 against the Mavs? If he's so great and so capable of dominating both ends..etc. Why did his team get run so easily? Before the series KG was talking shit about locking up Dirk and plenty of people thought the Wolves might win....certainly in Dallas people thought that.

Duncan never played on a bad team so you can't back that up at all. Hakeem played many years with very solid players and didn't win. The first year KG plays for a good organization he won it all.

In 02 he wasn't put on Dirk cause his team had few strengths and it was better to have KG go 25/19/5/2/2 instead of going around chasing a 7 foot perimeter player around screens. It makes perfect sense. Dirk didn't play on the blocks, then.

So where is this huge impact? All I see is a great player in KG that needed as much help as everyone else to win. He's done nothing out of the ordinary to warrant your claims.

And you already admitted that the 08 Celtics were better. So lets try this a different way;

Tell me which superstars had less help than Dirk en route to winning the title in the last 30 years. Please answer.

Dirk had some Jedi doing mind tricks on Lebron who wasn't missing shots and passivley took very few. Every player in the game would wish that the top player on the other team bug out on the floor. Even you said it! It was a fluke. Like you said all along about Chicago - Defense carried the team.

Also, I'd understand this if Dirk's team in 11 was the first sign of success or something. Again...we are talking about 11 straight seasons over 50 wins. 2 trips to the finals...3 trips to the wcf...a title. Doing so in a conference where each year at least 1 other team had more talent and better coaching. A conference of the Shaq/Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Kings, Suns, Thunder....

How did he do it? He doesn't do much....but somehow every team he's played on when healthy (his entire career essentially) was over 50 wins...different players, different coaches, different systems, different roles...

But it's all luck...

I already gave him props for that. He's a no excuse guy.

[spacebump]

Dirk had like three years where he was great with the clutch shooting. Before '11 he had a rap of being a choker (he wasn't tho). KG had a year where he was clutch. Its not like either one of them are top tier scorer's.

If you don't think of Dirk throughout most of his career as one of the top tier scorer's in the league, you didn't watch enough Dirk.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

It's great to know that this wouldn't even be a debate if LeBron hadn't melted down in the 11 Finals.

Dirk is a better scorer/shooter and that's it. He does nothing else even on the same level as Garnett, except perhaps loyalty (and even then it's never been tested the same way Garnett's has). In terms of achievement, they both have 1 MVP, 2 Finals, 1 Championship, Dirk has a Finals MVP, and Garnett has a DPOY.

Is the fact that Paul Pierce had a couple of better games in 2008 enough to wipe out the fact Garnett was a better player in almost every possible category? You can decide for yourself... but I only see one answer.

[DMAVS41]

Simple question. Name me a perimeter player that had to guard quality players on the level of Lebron/Durant? or Wade who had one of the best finals ever and Kobe? Don't make it confusing. Answer the simple question.


Duncan never played on a bad team so you can't back that up at all. Hakeem played many years with very solid players and didn't win. The first year KG plays for a good organization he won it all.

In 02 he wasn't put on Dirk cause his team had few strengths and it was better to have KG go 25/19/5/2/2 instead of going around chasing a 7 foot perimeter player around screens. It makes perfect sense. Dirk didn't play on the blocks, then.




Dirk had some Jedi doing mind tricks on Lebron who wasn't missing shots and passivley took very few. Every player in the game would wish that the top player on the other team bug out on the floor. Even you said it! It was a fluke. Like you said all along about Chicago - Defense carried the team.


I already gave him props for that. He's a no excuse guy.

You continue to ignore the questions. If KG is so much better...where was the impact in 02 in the series...seems to me in order for KG to anchor a good defense he needs help. Shocking how that works. I didn't say why didn't KG just stop Dirk...I said why he didn't impact that series at all defensively

Also, you can't keep focusing on 11 for Dirk as if it was the only time in his career he's been on a really good team that had success. What happened in 03? Or 06? or 07 in the regular season?

When a huge underdog team like the 11 Mavs wins the title...of course it is somewhat a fluke...because they are a worse team with worse talent than some of the teams they play. That makes it even more impressive...the margin for error on a championship team like that is much less.

And I will ask again. Please tell me which superstars won the title over the last 30 years with less help than Dirk had. There are a few, just and to see your list....

[goldcrow]

Comeon guys Dirk won it all being the clear #1 option on a balanced team with no other all-stars. KG had Pierce and Allen, two other HOFs on the latter part of their prime. That alone should tip the balance in Dirk's favor.

[Brunch@Five]

people really need to stop pretending that Dirk is simply a great scorer. He's one of the best offensive players of the past decade. Efficient, few TOs, arguably the best pick and roll/pop big ever. KG far from Dirk as an offensive player.

[BlackWhiteGreen]

people really need to stop pretending that Dirk is simply a great scorer. He's one of the best offensive players of the past decade. Efficient, few TOs, arguably the best pick and roll/pop big ever. KG far from Dirk as an offensive player.

KG has a better career FG%, and .4 TOPG more than Dirk over their career is hardly huge. You're talking like KG averages like 15ppg over his career... and of course omitting the fact that Garnett has him beat in every other facet of the game.

[rmt]

Hey, guys, ya'll can play the "what if" game until kingdom come. I can say what if Duncan had the 100+million payroll in SA the way Kobe has had. I can hypothesize who would do what where. All that matters is what happened. The better player doesn't necessarily end up winning more. If I were to start a franchise, I would pick KG over Dirk (because of the defense). It's easier to find a clutch perimeter player than a good, defensive big man.

I think that KG was (stupid/greedy/loyal) to stay in MIN for so long, but he's got his money and less championships - his choice. Same as it is his choice now to stay in BOS when he could go to any contender and make a HUGE difference and have a better chance of winning a championship. Same goes for Dirk too of course. But apparently, loyalty, comfort level, etc count for something (after they've made their millions, of course).