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Old 09-09-2007, 10:24 PM   #16
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

lebron james
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:04 PM   #17
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

the list is officially over..VC who was never the best at even his position and the closer he ever was #3 sg...And that was for one year. Every year he has gotten worse and worse and his career has been a huge dissapointment...
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:07 PM   #18
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

How 19 votes is "according to ISH" is beyond me.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:13 PM   #19
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

vince carter?
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:16 PM   #20
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Oprah Winfrey
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:50 PM   #21
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Dennis Johnson.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:59 PM   #22
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by wang4three
How 19 votes is "according to ISH" is beyond me.
like i said. most initial participants no longer care about this list. it is as flawed as throwing good sounding names to unawared babies in the game. plus the culprit of the thread is no scholar in his right, just someone trying to accomplish a 100 thread garbage. the merit is not there at all. this is detrimental to outsiders looking in.
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:06 AM   #23
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by IGOTGAME
the list is officially over..VC who was never the best at even his position and the closer he ever was #3 sg...And that was for one year. Every year he has gotten worse and worse and his career has been a huge dissapointment...
I wouldn't say the thread is over. It's not like Vince isn't one of the 100 greatest ever. did he get in to early, yer indeed. Lenny Wilkens was probally never a top 3 PG and is on the list, Bob Lanier was probally never a top 3 center but is on the list, Reggie Miller is on the list, probally never a top 3 shooting guard, I can go on and on.


Now, I would probally have Vince in the late 80's on the list but he's not the only one that got on a bit early. Gary Payton in #28, Kevin Johnson is #46, Dennis Rodman #47, Pistol Pete #52 and McGrady #53. It's really not the first time someone has made this list a little early.
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:52 AM   #24
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

Quote:
Originally Posted by L.Kizzle
I wouldn't say the thread is over. It's not like Vince isn't one of the 100 greatest ever. did he get in to early, yer indeed. Lenny Wilkens was probally never a top 3 PG and is on the list, Bob Lanier was probally never a top 3 center but is on the list, Reggie Miller is on the list, probally never a top 3 shooting guard, I can go on and on.


Now, I would probally have Vince in the late 80's on the list but he's not the only one that got on a bit early. Gary Payton in #28, Kevin Johnson is #46, Dennis Rodman #47, Pistol Pete #52 and McGrady #53. It's really not the first time someone has made this list a little early.

"Primacy and Recency Effect", see my post in BULLS "14 players better than Kobe" thread. When given a list, you are inclined to remember several at the start, a lot at the end, f_ck all in the middle. This is why DJ and Hawk got omitted. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but there is no respect for the past (middle era) here. DJ and Hawk should both be higher, but both are forgotten. These guys deserve to be higher than Carter.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:00 AM   #25
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I vote for Joe Fulks again.

I'll repeat what I wrote last time.

Jumpin' Joe Fulks was the league's first star. He was there at the beginning, the 1946-47 season, before the BAA absorbed the NBL and was renamed the NBA (BAA and NBA are the same league). George Mikan didn't join the league until the 1948-49 season. Red Auerbach was coaching the Washington Capitols.

Back then, the game was slow, more violent, and players generally kept their feet on the floor--looking for an open set shot. Fulks, on the other hand, was the league's first great jump shooter, would drive to the basket, and he shot first and asked questions later.

Fulks led the league in All-NBA Team votes (closest thing to MVP back then) the first two seasons (1947 and 1948), and was All-NBA 1st Team a total of 3 times and an All-NBA 2nd Team selection once. He was selected to play in the NBA's first 2 All-Star games (1951 and 1952). If there had been All-Star games for his entire career, he would have surely appeared in a total of 6 All-Star games during his 8 seasons. To explain the somewhat "short" career, note that Fulks was 25 years old when the league began, and when he retired he was 33 years old, which was quite old in basketball years back then, especially since there weren't strong financial incentives to hang around longer.

Fulks played for the Philadelphia Warriors (later became the Golden State Warriors). The team averaged 68.6 PPG the initial 1946-47 season of the "dead ball" era, and Fulks averaged 23.2 PPG of them! That's 34% of his team's points. For perspective, when Kobe Bryant averaged 30 PPG in 2003, he averaged 30% of his team's points. The next best scorer in the 1946-47 season was Bob Feerick with 16.8 PPG.

The Warriors won the championship that season, and Fulks would have undoubtedly been the Finals MVP in addition to being the regular-season MVP. He scored 37 points in game 1 of the Finals, 26 points in game 3, 21 points in game 4, and 34 points in the decisive game 5.

Here's a brief look at his game 1 performance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TEPiHy8aII

Fulks again led the league in PPG for the 1947-48 season, with 22.1 PPG, and again took the Warriors to the NBA Finals. He would have been MVP of this season, too. For the 1948-49 season, Fulks was probably only the 2nd best basketball player in the league with the arrival of George Mikan. Fulks averaged 26.0 PPG, but came in second to Mikan. Fulks, however, did top Mikan's single-game scoring record of 48 by scoring 63 points, which Mikan would never eclipse.

Here's a biography of Fulks at NBA.com:
http://www.nba.com/history/players/fulks_summary.html

No player left was more dominant in their era. No player left influenced the game more.
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:48 AM   #26
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Default Re: Official #76 NBA Player Of All Time According To ISH

I think it's kind of odd that some will say Vince Carter is overrated, while at the same time maintining that Connie Hawkins is underrated.

Hawkins only played 7 seasons in the NBA--only 5 as a starter. He was selected to just 1 All-NBA Team, albeit a 1st Team, but, frankly, I don't believe he deserved it. I don't see the case for him being better even for just that season over John Havlicek and Gus Johnson (the fowards on the 2nd Team), or Dave DeBusschere, who didn't make an All-NBA Team that season.

The biggest problem with Hawkins game, it seems, is that he was awful at defense. Perhaps, that's another thing he developed on the streetball scene.

Hawkins also played 2 seasons in the ABA, but only 1 of those seasons was he healthy. He was awarded the ABA MVP in 1968 and dominated. But, it's clear that the ABA was an inferior league. Moreover, the ABA that Hawkins played in--the first 2 seasons of the league's existence--was inferior to the ABA of later.

However, Hawkins was an innovator; he was fantastic at dunking. So, is Vince Carter, though. Carter is probably a significantly better defensive player, too, and Carter's not even that good at defense. Carter has also played 9 seasons in the NBA--6 healthy seasons, so Hawkins doesn't have that on him, either.

The thing I do especially like about Hawkins, though, is that he was a good passer. But, Carter's not bad at that, either.

Another protest I have against Hawkins at this point of the list is that some of his contemporaries still not on this list had greater careers.

Spencer Haywood had a good ABA season, too, and was awarded the ABA MVP. His ABA stats are significantly more impressive, too (30 PPG and 19.5 RPG!). Where Haywood thoroughly trumps Hawkins is in the NBA. Haywood made 4 All-NBA Teams and played for 12 seasons in the league. For L.Kizzle and anyone else voting for Hawkins, how do you defend taking Hawkins over Haywood?

Mel Daniels probably had the greatest ABA career out of anyone--even better than Erving's. He won multiple MVPs and multiple championships. He could play on both ends of the court, and knowing how well he did against ABA players who also played in the NBA, like Artis Gilmore or Zelmo Beatty, or Hawkins and Haywood, I don't see how he's any worse than some of the centers already on this list and some others that are being considered. For those supporting Hawkins, how do you defend taking Hawkins over Daniels?

George McGinnis is another player who had a better ABA and NBA career than did Hawkins. He was ABA MVP once in his 4 ABA seasons, where he was also a champion (his ABA was more competitive than Hawkins' ABA, too). He then went on to make All-NBA Teams and play for 7 seasons in the league. McGinnis played in the Finals of both leagues. How do you defend taking Hawkins over McGinnis?

Gus Johnson made All-NBA Teams and All-Defensive Teams in his 10 NBA seasons. He even pushed Artis Gilmore around to win an ABA championship. How do you defend taking Hawkins over Johnson?

That's not to mention players outside of Hawkins' era that probably deserve to be ranked ahead of him. Streetball stuff is irrelevant. And, I don't see how he deserves so much benefit of the doubt due to the unfortunate scandal that kept him out of the NBA to be ranked above several players who played better and had greater careers.
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