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Old 06-21-2009, 11:10 AM   #16
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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Originally Posted by TheGame414
Was the Big Ten boring when Illinois and Michigan State were in the Final Four and were arguably two of the three most entertaining teams in the country in 2005?

People get so shortsighted with this stuff. The talent level in the Big Ten has been a little down, so the pace of play has been slower in recent years. That doesn't render the conference irrelevant. And it certainly won't last long the way most of the teams in the conference have recruited.

As far as Bruce Weber goes, I think Weber's proven for the last 12 years, dating back to his time at SIU, that he's a fantastic basketball coach. The questions with him have been recruiting, which has certainly been answered, and whether he was generally in over his head in terms of coaching a program that aims to compete for national championships. Personally, I never agreed with that one. I mean, we were in the national title game in his second year here.

The only question about him doing that (going to the title game, that is) was whether or not he could do it with his guys, which goes back to the recruiting question. And, again, I think that one's been answered.
How has the talent level gone up all of a sudden?

Just because Illinois landed the #14 ranked SG, and #23 ranked SG's.

Next year will probably be an even worse year for the Big 10, there will be 2 dominant teams in Michigan State & Purdue, the suprise team will probably be Minnesota, Minnesota is bringing in arguably a Top 10 recruiting class in the country along with returning each player from last season from a NCAA Tournament team while Illinois will have to replace their team leader Chester Frazier along with starter Trent Meachem.


I understand you are an Illinois fan, but your obvious homerism is affecting your judgement.

Illinois may be good but they are good in the Big 10 specifically, the conference is so evenly weak from 3-11 that Illinois will be able to pick up some wins to earn a Tournament bid, espescially if they choose to play another weak OOC schedule like they did last season.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:28 PM   #17
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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Originally Posted by Interminator
Thats only if the talent develops, you can't just point to a recruiting class where you're bringing in the #14 ranked SG, #23 ranked SG, #31 ranked PF, and #48 ranked SG and then expect each to provide enough of an impact for Illinois to be a Championship-caliber team in 2 seasons.

They'll once again be a veteran team, but to suspect that a veteran team will then become a Championship-caliber team is pretty far off, espescially without a Nationally legit star player to carry the team.McCamey is OK and Davis is solid, but these are basically your star players and neither have shown true Nationally respected star status as players.

They might be good enough for a Big 10 but I dont see how much better they would be Nationally with almost every other team looking good or better on paper for 2010-2011.
Who told you this about those position rankings? You've been misinformed.

D.J. Richardson was the RSCI No. 35 player in 2009. Brandon Paul was No. 49. They were ranked No. 9 and 14 among shooting guards in their class. Had either of them remained uncommitted, I'd be willing to bet they'd be even higher. Richardson was being talked about as a McDonald's All-American-caliber player last summer but because there wasn't a huge recruiting battle for him, his rankings didn't skyrocket. Same for Paul.

You're talking about a group of seniors that will be more than OK and will include a fourth-year starter and two three-year starters. McCamey and Davis were 2nd-team All-Conference as sophomores. If Legion lives up to his potential he'll be nearly as productive as them. Add onto that a 2009 class that was one of the nation's top 15 and a freshman class among the nation's top 3-5, and yes, you have a championship-caliber club. Jereme Richmond's going to rank among the top 5-8 players in the 2010 class and is the best forward prospect in Illinois since Darius Miles. He's the type of lottery talent that takes a really good club, which Illinois would have without him, and turns it into a championship contender.

If you want to talk about recruiting rankings, let's redo that rotation with them included (I'll use Scout for the 2010 guys since a)I have it handy and b)RSCI rankings haven't been calculated for the 2010 class yet):

PG- McCamey (71)/Jordan
SG- Richardson (35)/Paul (49)/Head (37)
SF- Richmond (6)/Legion (36)
PF- Davis/Griffey
C- Tisdale/Leonard (29)/Simpson

Also consider that Davis was a potential high 4-star had he gone to prep school, and Tisdale was young enough to also be a 2008 recruit; they likely would have both been Top 50 recruits in that class and have already begun to play like it, especially Davis.

This continued insistence that Big Ten success doesn't translate into national success has absolutely no basis in reality. It's total fiction. No other conference has had three teams in the national title game the last five years. No other conference besides the ACC has had more Final Four teams over the last decade, the last two decades or all-time.

Last edited by TheGame414 : 06-21-2009 at 12:49 PM.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:45 PM   #18
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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Originally Posted by Interminator
How has the talent level gone up all of a sudden?

Just because Illinois landed the #14 ranked SG, and #23 ranked SG's.

Next year will probably be an even worse year for the Big 10, there will be 2 dominant teams in Michigan State & Purdue, the suprise team will probably be Minnesota, Minnesota is bringing in arguably a Top 10 recruiting class in the country along with returning each player from last season from a NCAA Tournament team while Illinois will have to replace their team leader Chester Frazier along with starter Trent Meachem.


I understand you are an Illinois fan, but your obvious homerism is affecting your judgement.

Illinois may be good but they are good in the Big 10 specifically, the conference is so evenly weak from 3-11 that Illinois will be able to pick up some wins to earn a Tournament bid, espescially if they choose to play another weak OOC schedule like they did last season.
Again, I don't know where you get your recruiting rankings from, but whatever. I don't know how you're figuring on the Big Ten being worse. It's going to have two teams in the top 6-8 and four more in the Top 25. If that means the Big Ten is worse than last year, then I guess I missed the conference being incredibly awesome in 2009. It was solid, but I don't remember it being as awesome as you apparently do.

Tell Andy Katz he's a homer. He has Big Ten teams ranked No. 2, 6, 13, 16 and 19.

Tell Joe Lunardi he's a homer. He has seven Big Ten teams in his initial post-draft deadline field, with No. 1 (MSU), 2 (Purdue), 3 (Illinois), 5 (Minnesota), 6 (Ohio State), 8 (Michigan), and 10 (Wisconsin) seeds.

Tell Gary Parrish he's a homer. He has Big Ten teams ranked No. 3, 9, 16, 20, 21, and 23.


Tell Jeff Goodman he's a homer. (Granted, this one was pre-deadline, but none of the Big Ten teams were deadline-affected and few teams, if any, would have skyrocketed due to deadline decisions anyway.) Big Ten at No. 3, 7, 15, 16, 17 and 19.


If you want to ignore how improved almost every Big Ten team looks going into 2009-2010, or if you want to keep living in this fictional world where the Big Ten is inferior to the rest of the nation, or not nationally relevant, that's your decision. It's shortsighted and based on a very tiny sample set from recent years and is kind of off-base even going off of that, but you can't call me a homer when my view of things almost exactly reflects national opinion of the conference going into next season. The Big Ten teams in my Top 25 are almost exactly in line with those of the national writers.

If it's being a homer to think that your team, which finished 2nd in the conference last year and will be much improved the next year, will finish 4th or 5th in the conference next year, then sure. I'm a homer.

Last edited by TheGame414 : 06-21-2009 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 06-21-2009, 07:37 PM   #19
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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Originally Posted by unbreakable
Ever since they had their breakout year with Deron Williams at the helm this team has virtually disappeared. I dont know if its because the cold weather in Illinois, the weak fanbase, or the campus support, but this team is cold as ice.

Im curious what do yall think this team should do to become a respectable program again? Also do you think maybe they should move down to Division 1-AA to become more respected?


ROFL PUHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

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Old 06-21-2009, 09:47 PM   #20
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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Originally Posted by TheGame414
Who told you this about those position rankings? You've been misinformed.

D.J. Richardson was the RSCI No. 35 player in 2009. Brandon Paul was No. 49. They were ranked No. 9 and 14 among shooting guards in their class. Had either of them remained uncommitted, I'd be willing to bet they'd be even higher. Richardson was being talked about as a McDonald's All-American-caliber player last summer but because there wasn't a huge recruiting battle for him, his rankings didn't skyrocket. Same for Paul.
I use ESPN's position rankings, typically they are extremely accurate in their rankings of players.

Quote:
You're talking about a group of seniors that will be more than OK and will include a fourth-year starter and two three-year starters. McCamey and Davis were 2nd-team All-Conference as sophomores. If Legion lives up to his potential he'll be nearly as productive as them.
It all depends on their development, experience doesnt mean they will be better players, they each still need to improve and using being ranked All Conference in such a weak conference like the Big 10 holds no weight, the lack of scoring and impact players in the conference definetly devalues the 2nd team of their All Conference.


Quote:
Add onto that a 2009 class that was one of the nation's top 15 and a freshman class among the nation's top 3-5, and yes, you have a championship-caliber club. Jereme Richmond's going to rank among the top 5-8 players in the 2010 class and is the best forward prospect in Illinois since Darius Miles. He's the type of lottery talent that takes a really good club, which Illinois would have without him, and turns it into a championship contender.
For 2009 they were ranked #23 by ESPN, once again a more accurate recruiting service thann Rivals who raises players' rankings based on their offers for schools. Once a few big time schools gets involved with a player their ranking immediately rises, using Bertrand for example who is ranked among the top 150 players in the country by Rivals and ESPN lists him as the #48 ranked SG in the country.

Jereme Richmond is supposedly very good, I havent seen him play yet but hopefully I'll catch his AAU team when they come to DC.

Not saying that he isnt an Elite player, but once again you're expecting their current players to develop enough over the following seasons to be competitive in 2011.What is to say if guys like McCamey or Davis improve enough next season, that they dont turn pro?

Quote:
If you want to talk about recruiting rankings, let's redo that rotation with them included (I'll use Scout for the 2010 guys since a)I have it handy and b)RSCI rankings haven't been calculated for the 2010 class yet):

PG- McCamey (71)/Jordan
SG- Richardson (35)/Paul (49)/Head (37)
SF- Richmond (6)/Legion (36)
PF- Davis/Griffey
C- Tisdale/Leonard (29)/Simpson

Also consider that Davis was a potential high 4-star had he gone to prep school, and Tisdale was young enough to also be a 2008 recruit; they likely would have both been Top 50 recruits in that class and have already begun to play like it, especially Davis.
OK.

Quote:
This continued insistence that Big Ten success doesn't translate into national success has absolutely no basis in reality. It's total fiction. No other conference has had three teams in the national title game the last five years. No other conference besides the ACC has had more Final Four teams over the last decade, the last two decades or all-time.
I am talking about currently and the past 2 seasons now, the Big 10 has been very weak and their teams have pretty much been Hit or Miss outside of usually the 1 or 2 Elite teams that season in the conference.

Michigan State was clearly the best team in the Big 10 last year, but it was proved in the Title Game how unprepared they were to face a team like UNC.
They wouldnt have beat UConn if it wasnt for the massive home advantage, and UConn's lack of depth.

From top to bottom the Big 10 is the weakest conference in Basketball, they've reached 4 title games and lost all 4 in the last 7 years.

Illinois wasnt even prepared for a Western Kentucky squad without their 2 best players from last season, Now explain to me how they werent overrated having gone through the entire season losing key games on the road and their only big wins were against Purdue & Missouri teams who had yet to catch fire as they did later on in the season?

Their OOC schedule had the likes of Chicago State,Eastern Washington, and Texas A&M CC on it.

Their only somewhat competitive games they had was against Clemson & Missouri.And they split those.

Tell me how they werent overrated going through a weak Big 10 last season featuring the likes of 8 teams who lost 8 games or more in conference, who only reached the tournament on their weak OOC schedules and wins at home against the other teams in conference with weak OOC schedules.

A highlight game in the conference is a matchup between 2 teams with 7+ losses in conference but each have 20 wins?

All each school does other than Michigan State, is pad their record in OOC games to raise their ranking and then beat up on each other in a weak low scoring matchups with teams just like them, then when they get to the tournament they get exposed by teams who are actually competitive Nationally, in Illinois' case it was Western Kentucky who at least faced a highly ranked team like Louisville as a OOC game and won.

You're telling me a team that had already previously lost to a team from the Sun Belt in Western Kentucky in the tournament who at one point in the 4th Quarter were up by 17, will somehow be better next season after losing 2 of their senior leaders in Frazier and Meachem and replacing them will somehow immediately make Illinois better, and then the following season they'll be competing for a NCAA Title?

Wow.
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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I use ESPN's position rankings, typically they are extremely accurate in their rankings of players.

Those are the worst rankings you can use. Absolutely the worst ones.
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Old 06-21-2009, 11:43 PM   #22
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

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Originally Posted by IlliniFan
Those are the worst rankings you can use. Absolutely the worst ones.


Why is that?

Espescially compared to recruiting services like Rivals & Scouts.
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:04 AM   #23
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

We were already good. Time to be great.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

No rankings are inherently any better than any other, which is why RSCI is the only thing that makes sense to go by.

As far as the rest, I'm bored with this and didn't read it.
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Old 06-22-2009, 01:45 PM   #25
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Default Re: Will Illinois ever be good again?

In fact, this thread started stupid and got worse. It can be done now.
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