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Old 12-23-2011, 10:54 AM   #46
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Got banned for copyright shit. Started a new one, but I've only uploaded 1 game so far.

What's the new name of you're YT channel ?
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Old 12-23-2011, 10:58 AM   #47
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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What's the new name of you're YT channel ?

returnofshaqattack. I'll have a few more games up soon, but as I said, just have 1 right now.
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Old 12-23-2011, 11:45 AM   #48
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by oolalaa

He was a good/very good scorer, a fantastic athlete who was as devastating on the fast break as he was hitting mid range jumpers. But, he was an average defender, an average playmaker and an average rebounder.

He was actually considered a very good defender. Not all-league or anything, but very good. The other points I'll definitely concede.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:17 PM   #49
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:22 PM   #50
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

Sort of deceptive. Worthy battled injuries all year (consequently missed 30 games). Guy was never the same afterwards.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:34 PM   #51
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

While I don't agree with your assessment of Worthy at all, I do agree with this part. Circumstances are extremely important when looking at how much a player excelled and how much they accomplished.

With that being said, you stated that Worthy couldn't be doubled because of the Lakers talent, but he was doubled quite a bit in the post because he was a devastating post player. And he could pass out of double teams quite well. That's why I think he could do just fine on more of a halfcourt team. He had arguably his best season in 1990, and the Lakers pace had slowed considerably by that point with both Magic and Worthy's post up games being as important as their transition game, if not more.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:43 PM   #52
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Having said that, IMHO, Dantley was truly one of the greatest offensive players of all-time. He was clearly the best scorer in the league from the early 80's until MJ came along later in the decade. And his ability to score 30+ ppg on 18-20 FGAs per game in a span of several seasons was just phenomenal. 30 ppg on .559 to .580 shooting...and all from a 6-5 210 POST player!

That is simply not true. Dantley is a great illustration of why the way in which you score your points can be almost as important as the amount you score.

As you mentioned, he was a 6"5 (at the very most. I've heard people say he was actually closer to 6"3) post player. He was nicknamed 'the black hole'. That should tell you all everything you need to know. When he got the ball in the post it never came out (partly because he was a poor passer) and he often used up a lot of time on the clock.

In his 5 highest scoring seasons, his teams records were 24-58, 28-54, 25-57, 45-37 & 42-40. In 1982, with dantley pouring in 30.3 ppg on 57%, the Jazz were 25-57. The very next season, with dantley missing 3 quarters of the season with torn wrist ligaments, they improved to 30-52. WHAT??

Dantley was a product of his era.

Last edited by oolalaa : 12-23-2011 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:50 PM   #53
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.
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Old 12-23-2011, 12:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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I always tell people to consider this, the Lakers could have drafted Nique before Worthy. So imagine how much better a player Nique could have become with Magic setting him up. Not to mention how crazy "Showtime" fast breaks would have been finished, they would have been even more legendary than they already are! And Nique would not only be top 50 he may be top 10 all time.

Steady on now . You're right though, Nique would have been seen in a much different light if he was drafted by L.A. I'm fairly confident they could have rattled off 3 titles in 4 years with him instead of Worthy.

Last edited by oolalaa : 12-24-2011 at 03:19 PM.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:04 PM   #55
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
I always maintained that worthy was a product of the team he was on and era he played in. He did have a wicked first step and lightning quick spin move. But you couldn't double team him cuz the lakers were so potent. And a large portion of his shots were a result of magic hitting him for an easy layup on the fastbreak. I'm not sure of how well he could've done on a bad team that didn't stress the fastbreak.

Look at what he did the year after magic retired in 92 when he was 30. He shot 45%. He wasn't much of a passer, and was mediocre rebounder. And his defense was ok at best.

He surely has no business being in the hall and top 50.

This is the problem with a lot of posters. They don't look at a players total circumstances when considering the greatness of players.

Well said, especially the bolded.
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:07 PM   #56
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I don't see how someone would come to the conclusion that Kiki or Alex English were better than Worthy. Or Aguirre for that matter. Bernard King during his short prime? Yes. Haven't seen much of Dantley on the Jazz, but he wasn't as good as Worthy when he was a Piston, and he had a chance to win as a guy who wasn't the best player on a loaded team. Maybe they should've won in '88, but he wasn't as good in that role on a contender as Worthy, and Detroit got better after he left.

Worthy was a beast in transition, a reliable mid-range shooter, almost unstoppable in the post, a very good passer out of the post and he almost always raised his game in the playoffs.

There were series when you could argue he was the Lakers MVP. Take the '87 WCF for example when he averaged 30 and was their most consistent player in the series.

I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:15 PM   #57
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
While I don't agree with your assessment of Worthy at all, I do agree with this part. Circumstances are extremely important when looking at how much a player excelled and how much they accomplished.

With that being said, you stated that Worthy couldn't be doubled because of the Lakers talent, but he was doubled quite a bit in the post because he was a devastating post player. And he could pass out of double teams quite well. That's why I think he could do just fine on more of a halfcourt team. He had arguably his best season in 1990, and the Lakers pace had slowed considerably by that point with both Magic and Worthy's post up games being as important as their transition game, if not more.
What is there to disagree with? Weren't a large portion of his pts off the fastbreak?

And like I stated earlier, look at his 92 season. Was he injured? Yes but in thee games he played in the lakers were 28-26. So he wasn't a game changer. And they still had scott, green and a pretty good PG in sedale threat
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Old 12-23-2011, 01:50 PM   #58
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by 97 bulls
What is there to disagree with? Weren't a large portion of his pts off the fastbreak?

And like I stated earlier, look at his 92 season. Was he injured? Yes but in thee games he played in the lakers were 28-26. So he wasn't a game changer. And they still had scott, green and a pretty good PG in sedale threat

I think he was a much better passer than you do, I think he was better than an "ok at best" defender, I did see him get doubled quite a bit when he posted up and think he would've done just fine on a team that didn't run as much.

Yes, he did score quite a bit in transition, but I don't think he relied on it.

So I disagree with those parts. As far as the '92 Lakers? They had a lot of injuries. Not just Magic's abrupt retirement, but Sam Perkins and Worthy went down around the same time, that's their 2 leading scorers and Vlade Divac missed more than half of the season.

The Lakers were 23-15 before Worthy missed a game.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oolalaa
I know very little about Kiki Vandeweghe. I'm a little too young to have seen him play live and i can find very little footage of him on youtube, especially in his prime. Can you tell me a little something about him? I'd just like to get a better idea of his play style. Was he a jump shooter or more of a slasher? Was he good defensively? etc

From everything I've seen of Kiki, he was a good shooter, had some nice fairly deceptive moves and good size for a small forward as well as a player with his shooting touch, but his scoring was inflated due to his extremely fast-paced teams and the era. Plus, he seemed to be one-dimensional and a horrible defender.

I doubt you'll find many who would put him in Worthy's class.
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Old 12-23-2011, 02:52 PM   #59
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Well I think Worthy could have been a scoring machine franchise player a hair below the level of Nique, King, English, and Dantley. Meaning putting up around 27 points a night peak value wise. The other four were getting 30 points a night at their best. But Worthy was a better defender than all four of them. He was also the biggest at 6'9 230 pounds. And he played lots of PF early in his career. James was a beast and in my book passes the eye test for an alpha dog caliber SF, even though he was the second or third option for some of those Laker teams.

In terms of GOAT u factor longevity being great,numbers, team accolades,and solo accolades. In this sense, I would rank these at the GOAT SF's:

Bird
Doc
Hondo
Baylor
Barry
Lebron
Pip
Nique
Billy C
Pierce

I think Worthy has a case to be in the top ten SF's ever considering all factors along with English, Dantley, King. But peak value wise I would say: (no order after the top 4)

Bird
Lebron
Doc
Baylor
Barry
Hondo
Nique
G Hill
King
Billy C.

So James in my book is probably rated just right. I feel Nique should have been on the 50 greatest and was better than Worthy. However I would leave James on and take off somebody else like Shaq, who had played only 5 years.

I usually like your posts and I'm always interested in what ya gotta say..... but this, nope.
Where's McHale?
And in terms of a guy getting robbed - where's Chet Walker? Billy C is in the Hall but Chet the Jet ain't??
Also if you talk peak value I would argue for the other F on those Sixers teams namely Lucius Jackson. Guy was awesome. But you mention accolades etc. and his injury happened so soon that it wasn't ever gonna happen for Luke

Y'all are talking about overrating James Worthy but consider those Lakers teams without him. Maybe he was the key instead of the other way around. That was a stacked team no question but so were the Celtics & Sixers. It's not as stupid as it sounds.... lot of the court leaders are not the 'team leader' e.g., Phil Jackson often commented that Pippen was the true floor general on the Bulls, finding ways to get the whole team involved which Jordan couldn't be bother with, e.g., Sam Jones who had the Celtics offense run through him for his 10 rings.

It's easy to say Worthy didn't do as well after that Lakers dynasty broke up, lower rebounding lower fg% etc. but he was injured a lot in the 90s.
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Old 12-23-2011, 03:08 PM   #60
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Default Re: Is James Worthy one of the most overrated players of all time?

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
I think he was a much better passer than you do, I think he was better than an "ok at best" defender, I did see him get doubled quite a bit when he posted up and think he would've done just fine on a team that didn't run as much.

Yes, he did score quite a bit in transition, but I don't think he relied on it.

So I disagree with those parts. As far as the '92 Lakers? They had a lot of injuries. Not just Magic's abrupt retirement, but Sam Perkins and Worthy went down around the same time, that's their 2 leading scorers and Vlade Divac missed more than half of the season.

The Lakers were 23-15 before Worthy missed a game.




From everything I've seen of Kiki, he was a good shooter, had some nice fairly deceptive moves and good size for a small forward as well as a player with his shooting touch, but his scoring was inflated due to his extremely fast-paced teams and the era. Plus, he seemed to be one-dimensional and a horrible defender.

I doubt you'll find many who would put him in Worthy's class.
The lakers were 28-26 in the games he played in. And finished with a 43 win season. Now I'm not saying divac and perkins missing games didn't have an effect. But let's be honest, you can say that about a lot of players. Hell most players and teams. It wasn't like he missed these guys and still led the lakers to 50 plus wins.
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