1997 Chicago Bulls ( Big Three) vs. 1997 Houston Rockets ( Big Three)

[Indian guy]

Thank you. Couldn't have said it better myself.

These clowns like Sir Charles watch some highlight videos and then parrot what they hear. It's a joke to those of us who have (repeatedly) watched the actual games. Your points about Pip's strengths/weaknesses on offense echo my own thoughts. The things that kept him from being an elite scorer were his inconsistent jumper (especially off the dribble), his high dribble, his non-elite first step and agility (this despite being one of the fastest end-to-end players ever and a terrific leaper), and his lack of certain skills (triple threat footwork and post game in particular).

I also have to chuckle when I come across kids who say that Pip was a better ballhandler than Jordan. "BUT HE INITIATED TEH OFFENSE!!!11oneone."

I actually don't think Pippen's overrated at all by those who actually saw him play. But that's the problem. How many of these posters on message boards have actually seen him play? Not many. A lot of them think crediting Pippen with more accolades than he deserves makes them stand out or appear like they're more "knowledgeable" about the past. And you have some who are so sick of MJ that they overrate Pippen just to tear MJ down a little. Of course, they don't go about it that way but their agenda and ignorance becomes very obvious within 2 lines.

[Sir Charles]

These Kids must Really go Watch All Those Games .

Pippen = Most Underrated Player of the Late 80s and Early 90s
Pippen = Best Defensive 1 on 1 SF and Perimeter Player Ever
Pippen = Best SF of the 90s
Pippen = One of the Most All Around Forwards of All Time

Not to mention one of the Most Fundamental Players I Ever Saw in Terms of Passing and Playing Defense

[Sir Charles]

Are you an idiot? in 1994-95 Mr. Jordan came back for some games still



Let me Remined You:

When Jordan was there...

It was Pippens Job to:

1-STOP the Main Scoring Threat of the Other team (other than Some Big Time PFs)

2-Lead the Creative Assisting Job from the "Forward Spot" and Sometimes The "Guard Spot". BOTH.

3-Be The Best Perimeter Defender He Could Be

4-Rebound in the Paint

5-Be The Second Scoring Threat while Being the Main Creator for Others in Both Ends (Front Line/Backcourt)

Now..When Jordan Left. Pippen had to the Same Thing but....

Be The Main Focal Scoring Threat

Guess what happend in the 93-94 Season?

Pippen made the Whole Bull Team FG% Rise, Himselves Rise. Lead the Team In EVERYTHING, EVEN THE LOAD

55 Wins (Just 2 Less than With Jordan)

Face The Knicks for 7 Games, In One of The Most Exiting Series Ever. Yes The Knicks The the Team that took HAKEEM to 7 Games and when Jordan was around to 6 Games

3rd in MVP Voting

Finally...In a Trianlge Offense When Most of the Offense is Relied and Done by Perimeter/Backcourt Players Moving Around in A Fast Pace to Escape for a Good Shot its = [COLOR="Red"]much harder to have a High FG%[/COLOR].

Contraty to where a [COLOR="Blue"]Fast Pace Offense Team Lead by a Great PG (ala Magic, Stockton) and a Good Passing SG = Its Much Easier for the Frontline to Have a High FG% and Score[/COLOR] because the Backcourt Just has the Job to Create for them (80s Lakers Example)

The Bulls had it Very Hard! even with both Jordan and Pippen. Because their strengths was not Frontline Offense.

The Bulls where not the 80s Celtics, Mid 80s Rockets, Early 80s Sixers, Mid 80s Hawks etc whose Strength was the Frontline Offense.

Their Offensive Strength was the Backcourt: Paxon/BJ, Jordan and with Pippen as a Third Guard-like Point Forward.

So you had Pippen having to Create and Score at the same time and Yes Play D (especiallyfor Pipp it usually him having to Guard the Other Team`s Best Offensive Man: Wilkins, Bird etc) ALL AT THE SAME TIME and without Jordan...just imagine the load?

Stop Underrating Pippen

End

[97 bulls]

OK, but when did Pippen shut Magic down? How many times does this myth need to be shot down before EVERYONE shuts up about it? FACT: MJ almost exclusively guarded Magic in the '91 Finals for ALL 5 games save for short stretches when he was in foul trouble or taking a breather on the bench. This is a fact. I have every game of this series and I've watched each game countless times over the years. Pippen guarded Magic for a significant period ONLY 2 times in that series. Once in Game 2 during the 2nd half after MJ got in foul trouble, and he did indeed do a great job. Pippen guarded Magic again for a decent stretch in Game 3, but Magic completely had his way that time. That's it! Outside of those 2 stretches Pippen was only on Magic for a few minutes here and there the entire series. MJ took him otherwise and he himself wasn't taking Magic 1-on-1 much. Bulls doubled and trapped Magic that entire ****ing series. Horace Grant almost always came and doubled Magic in the post. Limiting him was a complete team effort and I can't emphasize limiting enough! Magic's numbers in the Finals were no different than what he had been putting up all season. His FG% dropped a little and that was about it. Nobody shut him down. Way too many kids watch those Championship Bulls videos where they show/talk about Pippen stopping Magic in Game 2, and they think that's what happened the entire series. It only happened in 1 game people.



There's a reason for that. Pippen was never a good enough playmaker to be a great 1st option. He just wasn't that good of an offensive player and it showed whenever he took the court w/o MJ.



Come on. Nobody in 94 and 95 was stopping him from putting up those numbers. The Bulls w/o MJ were a VERY mediocre offensive team. Yet the best Pippen could muster was 22 ppg, and that's who he is. He's not a 1st option/go-to-guy material. He had many skills but he lacked the skills required to be a volume scorer - such as a consistent jumper, great 1-on-1 ability or a great post-game. Pippen didn't have any of those things. He had an inconsistent J, he was never a great 1-on-1 player because he didn't have a great 1st step(you're dead wrong about that) + had a high dribble which never helps you in face-up 1-on-1 situations. He developed into a pretty solid post player by his late 20's, but was never good enough to operate exclusively from there and score a lot. Pippen's strength on the offensive end was his transition play. He was a terrific open court player, be it running it up himself or filling the lanes. But these strengths made him an opportunistic scorer rather than someone you could use as a go-to-guy when the game slowed down. He simply wasn't that good of a playmaker off the dribble. I watched this guy's entire career LIVE every other night here in Chicago. I know his game as well as anyone. He was 1 of the greatest defensive players of all time and was terrific in the open court. Offensively he could do a lot of the basics(dribble/shoot/slash/finish) at an above average level. Above average being the key. He simply didn't have the required skills on the MORE important end of the floor to be THE MAN or the superstar ignorant people make him out to be.

first, show me where i stated that pip stopped magic. second, you contradict yourself by first saying pip had an inadequate jumpshot, or first step. then at the end of your post, say that he had an above average j, dribble, slash, and finish. make up your mind. and lol at pip couldnt score about 3 or 4 more ppg throughout his career because you saw him live? answer this question for me, when the game is over, dont the teams go back and critiq what they did by watching video? or do they just try to remember of the top of their head?

i believe pip could have averaged 23-25 ppg if he did what alot of players do and thats pad their stats. he was the ultimate team player.

[momo]

Finally...In a Trianlge Offense When Most of the Offense is Relied and Done by Perimeter/Backcourt Players Moving Around in A Fast Pace to Escape for a Good Shot its = [COLOR="Red"]much harder to have a High FG%[/COLOR].

Look, this thread is already stupid beyond belief and off topic so I don't mind taking it further: [COLOR="Black"]this[/COLOR] [COLOR="blue"]is[/COLOR] [COLOR="Navy"]not[/COLOR] [COLOR="Yellow"]at[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"]all[/COLOR] [COLOR="Teal"]what[/COLOR] [COLOR="DarkRed"]the[/COLOR] [COLOR="Yellow"]tipple[/COLOR] [COLOR="DimGray"]post[/COLOR] [COLOR="Orange"]is[/COLOR] [COLOR="MediumTurquoise"]about[/COLOR]...

And it is not about making text look stupid by pressing buttons either

[guy]

i believe pip could have averaged 23-25 ppg if he did what alot of players do and thats pad their stats. he was the ultimate team player.

Alot of players can average 25 ppg, but on what kind of efficiency? And how many wins does that lead to? Put it this way, if Pippen had the mentality that Kobe had when he was with Shaq, where he felt he should have an equal scoring load, how successful are the Bulls? If Pippen is taking some of the scoring load away from Jordan, the Bulls don't win 6 championships. The difference between Pippen and Kobe is that Kobe is a much better scorer, so him having close to an equal load as Shaq was not detrimental to the team's success.

[97 bulls]

Alot of players can average 25 ppg, but on what kind of efficiency? And how many wins does that lead to? Put it this way, if Pippen had the mentality that Kobe had when he was with Shaq, where he felt he should have an equal scoring load, how successful are the Bulls? If Pippen is taking some of the scoring load away from Jordan, the Bulls don't win 6 championships. The difference between Pippen and Kobe is that Kobe is a much better scorer, so him having close to an equal load as Shaq was not detrimental to the team's success.

your saying the same thing i am. people discredit pippen because he wasnt scoring in the high 20s. but like i said, pip could do that but obviosly at the cost of winning.

[Timmy D for MVP]

When defensive teams beat offensive teams it also has to do with the fact that the defensive teams are very good offensive teams as well. The Suns don't ever beat the Spurs cause they completely suck on defense, while the Spurs are one of the best defensive teams in the league AND they have a great offense. I definitely think defense is important, I'd be an idiot not to. I just think great offensive players are more important then great defensive players.

Uhh, I see what you're saying, but no. A great defensive player is shown to be the key to winning championships. Think about this, in the history of the NBA only four players have ever won a title in the same year they won the scoring title (though I may be wrong, might want to check me on that).

Granted it's somewhat flukey of a stat, and Jordan did it 6 times, but I still believe there is a little correlation there. Normally when someone scores that much it is on either a bad team, or one that focuses on offense.

Unless there are two or more players who excell in the opposing fields, like Mike and Scottie. But what is different about them is that both were amazing on both sides of the floor, one stronger where the other was weaker.

Great defense begets offense, it doesn't work the other way around. So having that guy who can defend amazingly is in my mind more crucial.

[Timmy D for MVP]

I like to talk about what players' peers thought about them, because they would know better than any of us what someone did, or didn't do to make a team better. One of the best guys to quote is Michael Jordan, because he doesn't blow smoke up people's assses. Here's what he wrote about Pippen, and I paraphrase:

"There are very, very few I have come across in my career I would consider to have achived greatness. I would say Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have achieved greatness to a certin extent... The one player I think is close to them is Scottie Pippen... He's right there with those guys except as a leader... Believe me I don't think he's far from those guys. There are a lot of times on the court where I felt I was playing with my twin. That's how much he has grown in the time we've played together."

[97 bulls]

I like to talk about what players' peers thought about them, because they would know better than any of us what someone did, or didn't do to make a team better. One of the best guys to quote is Michael Jordan, because he doesn't blow smoke up people's assses. Here's what he wrote about Pippen, and I paraphrase:

"There are very, very few I have come across in my career I would consider to have achived greatness. I would say Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have achieved greatness to a certin extent... The one player I think is close to them is Scottie Pippen... He's right there with those guys except as a leader... Believe me I don't think he's far from those guys. There are a lot of times on the court where I felt I was playing with my twin. That's how much he has grown in the time we've played together."

nice post timmy

[guy]

Uhh, I see what you're saying, but no. A great defensive player is shown to be the key to winning championships. Think about this, in the history of the NBA only four players have ever won a title in the same year they won the scoring title (though I may be wrong, might want to check me on that).

So what? Great offensive players do not only consist of scoring champions. All championship teams were great offensive teams. On every one of those teams you had 1 guy who can go off on any night, or you had a combo of 2 or 3 that could give equal output. And I've said it doesn't work with just one aspect being strong, both offense and defense needs to be strong and balanced. Let me ask you, if you were starting off a team, who would you draft first, Carmelo Anthony or Bruce Bowen?

[97 bulls]

So what? Great offensive players do not only consist of scoring champions. All championship teams were great offensive teams. On every one of those teams you had 1 guy who can go off on any night, or you had a combo of 2 or 3 that could give equal output. And I've said it doesn't work with just one aspect being strong, both offense and defense needs to be strong and balanced. Let me ask you, if you were starting off a team, who would you draft first, Carmelo Anthony or Bruce Bowen?

i see how your thinking. but your question is not really a fair one. because bowen is a great ON THE BALL DEFENDER. he not a great help defender, rebounder, shot blocker etc. he cant control a game with his defense. then factor in that he has duncan backing him up. a better question to you would be bill russel who was a marginal scorer, and great defender or anthony. who is a great scorer and at best a marginal defender.

[Loki]

I like to talk about what players' peers thought about them, because they would know better than any of us what someone did, or didn't do to make a team better. One of the best guys to quote is Michael Jordan, because he doesn't blow smoke up people's assses. Here's what he wrote about Pippen, and I paraphrase:

"There are very, very few I have come across in my career I would consider to have achived greatness. I would say Magic Johnson and Larry Bird have achieved greatness to a certin extent... The one player I think is close to them is Scottie Pippen... He's right there with those guys except as a leader... Believe me I don't think he's far from those guys. There are a lot of times on the court where I felt I was playing with my twin. That's how much he has grown in the time we've played together."

Yeah, clearly Pippen is as good as Bird and Magic. My a$$...

[97 bulls]

Yeah, clearly Pippen is as good as Bird and Magic. My a$$...

you see, now your soundn like laker fans. where in that post did you see anything about pip being as good as bird and magic? i saw the word CLOSE. but not as good as. and on some nights he was as good as anybody.

[Loki]

and on some nights he was as good as anybody.

There was not a single night in Pippen's career where he was as good as the top 10 players who ever played were on their good nights. So you're wrong.