Kobe Bryant: "Nobody has won more championships than me in my entire generation."

[Yao Ming's Foot]

What are you blathering about? The guy is making a contrary argument to a popular belief when it comes to a basketball player. You know, someone who plays a game wherein you shoot a ball into a hoop.

It's totally subjective, and he has every right to come to his own opinion about a player based on other evidence and criteria than what you deem "acceptable".

It's like me saying that people who believe Kobe is an all time great are akin to those who supported the Iraq war initially because the media told them so. Why do people have to get so personal when it comes to debating players? Why can you not just debate someone sensibly without resorting to crap like this?

Honestly grow up.

“Too Often We Enjoy the Comfort of Opinion Without the Discomfort of Thought” - JFK

[chazzy]

poido is on a mission

[Money 23]

The 09 Magic were a better defensive team than 80% of the defensive teams Jordan faced in the Finals

They really weren't.

And the majority of quality defenses come from the ECF, which MJ faced in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

ECF was known for gritty, half court play ... much as it is today. You know the defenses that Kobe is known to struggle with compared to his elite wing contemporaries such as Wade, and LeBron who fair better against more physical defenses.

and likely 90% of the defensive teams Jordan faced in the playoffs overall.

Not true once again, comparing "defensive ratings" across different eras while not taking context into account has never made sense, but you stick to your insane agenda.

Trying to convince people the '09 Magic are better defense than the late 80s Pistons, early 90's Knicks is beyond retarded. But keep trying to pawn off your propaganda.

[KG215]

Dog, I'm literally the single most objective poster on this forum. It's pretty obvious when I'm being sincere about something or when I'm joking/trolling.

I shouldn't have included you. Since May-ish (the playoffs) I've actually come to appreciate you as a poster. My first impression was an ignorant biased LeBron fanboy. Took me a bit, but I realized you're hardly ever serious and a good poster.

I got caught up in the moment and just listed all the names he listed.

[KG215]

They really weren't.

And the majority of quality defenses come from the ECF, which MJ faced in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

ECF was known for gritty, half court play ... much as it is today. You know the defenses that Kobe is known to struggle with compared to his elite wing contemporaries such as Wade, and LeBron who fair better against more physical defenses.


Not true once again, comparing "defensive ratings" across different eras while not taking context into account has never made sense, but you stick to your insane agenda.

Trying to convince people the '09 Magic are better defense than the late 80s Pistons, early 90's Knicks is beyond retarded. But keep trying to pawn off your propaganda.

You're fighting a losing battle. There's been plenty of posters point out to him the flaw in saying the defenses Jordan faced in his playoff runs were worse than the defenses Kobe faced in his playoff runs by using DRtg as justification. It's a dead horse argument that's been beat to death with him.

I will concede, though, that the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics were better defensively than any team Jordan faced in the Finals, though.

[Mr Know It All]

[QUOTE=Yao Ming's Foot]

[BlueandGold]

Did you suffer from a coma from 2004-2008?

Most likely wasn't watching the league back then. That Denver incident killed Kobe's image with the public and with the media.. even more so than Lebron's decision. Simmons himself said Kobe got robbed of his MVP vote in 06 because of the Denver incident and he hates anything Lakers.. he has like 6 celtics in his top10

[Legends66NBA7]

he has like 6 celtics in his top10

I don't really follow Bill Simmons that much, which Celtics does he have in the Top 10 ?

[Money 23]

I will concede, though, that the 2004 Pistons and 2008 Celtics were better defensively than any team Jordan faced in the Finals, though.

I'm not trying to argue against him. I know he's insane, and is a Laker slut.

I will concede the 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics, and 2010 Celtics were better than any "Finals" defense MJ faced, but as I said MJ faced his superior defensive attention from teams WITHIN his conference. Which play a style that lend themselves to that style of ball.

I'm not going to sit here and say those three teams are better defensive clubs than the Daley Pistons, Riley Knicks, and Riley Heat simply due to skewed and flawed Defensive Ratings.

Kobe does not play well against ELITE ECF opponents and defenses. The style of play does something to him.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

They really weren't.

And the majority of quality defenses come from the ECF, which MJ faced in the first three rounds of the playoffs.

ECF was known for gritty, half court play ... much as it is today. You know the defenses that Kobe is known to struggle with compared to his elite wing contemporaries such as Wade, and LeBron who fair better against more physical defenses.


Not true once again, comparing "defensive ratings" across different eras while not taking context into account has never made sense, but you stick to your insane agenda.

Trying to convince people the '09 Magic are better defense than the late 80s Pistons, early 90's Knicks is beyond retarded. But keep trying to pawn off your propaganda.

Who said anything about defensive ratings across eras?

The Orlando Magic were the #1 defensive ranked team of 2009. The Nets were the #1 ranked defense of 2002. They were both elite ECF defense by any reasonable definition of the word and he shredded them.

Jordan faced the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 9th, 9th and 17th best ranked of their respective video game eras.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

I'm not trying to argue against him. I know he's insane, and is a Laker slut.

I will concede the 2004 Pistons, 2008 Celtics, and 2010 Celtics were better than any "Finals" defense MJ faced, but as I said MJ faced his superior defensive attention from teams WITHIN his conference. Which play a style that lend themselves to that style of ball.

I'm not going to sit here and say those three teams are better defensive clubs than the Daley Pistons, Riley Knicks, and Riley Heat simply due to skewed and flawed Defensive Ratings.

Kobe does not play well against ELITE ECF opponents and defenses. The style of play does something to him.

Wow those defenses sure sound tough. Do you think they could possibly compare to the early 00 Spurs or it required that have to be hacks to be a great defense?

I love how you guys are so proud of yourself for conceding that some of the greatest defenses of all time are better than teams that were not even the best defensive team in that era of video game offenses. So brave!

[Yao Ming's Foot]

So you accuse contrary opinions to your own of being without thought? Even though plenty of Kobe detractors in this thread including myself have brought forth evidence to support our own opinions.

That's wonderful spin you have there, worthy of a true politician.

My Opinion: Thoughtful

Your Opinion: Thoughtless

Now that's the kind of mindset to be proud of. Do you dismiss every single person who disagrees with something you say as being thoughtless? Just a question.

What evidence did you present? Which facts? Win Shares and PER?

[Mr Know It All]

What evidence did you present? Which facts? Win Shares and PER?

Ah, so again you are establishing criteria which you will only accept in an informed debate. Statistics or advanced statistics are apparently worth nothing in your eyes, so they do not qualify as evidence.

What a thoughtful and intelligent person you are. Like I said, you'd make a great politician.

[Yao Ming's Foot]

Ah, so again you are establishing criteria which you will only accept in an informed debate. Statistics or advanced statistics are apparently worth nothing in your eyes, so they do not qualify as evidence.

What a thoughtful and intelligent person you are. Like I said, you'd make a great politician.

I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything. PER and Win Shares it is.

I give you credit for at least trying something but when I referred to opinions without thought I wasn't referring to you.

[KG215]

I don't really follow Bill Simmons that much, which Celtics does he have in the Top 10 ?

In his updated "Pyramid" that I think he released in 2010 he had two Celtics in his top 10: Russell and Bird. I have to think BlueandGold was just using hyperbole to prove his point.