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Old 12-10-2010, 03:34 PM   #31
SCdac
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
When you play with Duncan, and Parker, and even Richard Jefferson has been an all star, everything's a little easier offensively.

Actually Jefferson is not an All-Star and in his peak years wasn't either. You may see that at as arguing semantics, but hey it's the truth. I agree with your comment to an extent, but it works both ways. Tim Duncan is averaging a career low in minutes first of all, and you have to remember that those players benefit from playing with Ginobili (especially right now) too. It's not a one-sided relationship of Ginobili getting all the benefits. Manu has just about as many assists in Monta Ellis... in like 200 less minutes... does that's count for anything? I think it should, he's one of the best playmakers at his position let alone in the game... I don't really care if he makes the ASG personally - but to suggest (honestly) that he shouldn't even be top 2-3 at the top of his position is ludicrous, considering he's playing better than the time he made it in 2005.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:43 PM   #32
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

There is no way that Roy is making it this year so Manu may have a shot.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:59 PM   #33
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
We arguing field goal percentages or ppg? Of course the Big 3's PPG took a hit, I'm talking about fg%

Before you chimed in harping on FG%, the PPG being inflated while on a bad team is what was being talked about. You started harping on FG%, since it's the only percentage that Ellis has over Manu, and since you had no argument for what I was saying about Monta Ellis' PPG being inflated due to getting 20 shots due to being on an awful team.



Quote:
Take KG, in 12 seasons as a Timberwolves, obviously being the man and though he did have a few all star teammates nobody was the caliber of what he has now, he eclipsed 50%FG 3 times. Since coming to Boston, he has every season. Why? More offensive threats = the less the defense can key in on you.

Haven't I already replied to this? I'm positive I did. Oh, here we go.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=16

Read it again. It shoots holes in your whole argument, and makes my initial argument clear. I mean, you replied to it, but apparently didn't read or respond to one bit of it. You just repeated your same argument. Why even still post if all you're going to do is say the same thing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
What abou the Boston big 3? Besides the fact that their PPG all went way down.

Or maybe we can bring up the most recent Big 3 conglomeration. Wade, LeBron, and Bosh. Is their efficency up? Or is it down? It's down, by a large amount. How about their PPG? Way down.

Give me one example, I'll give you another. Citing off one time where FG% or whatever went slightly up is negated by all the times it goes down


You're also wrong in assuming his FG% is up because he's being keyed on less. It's up because the only shots he's getting now are set up, wide open ones that he's getting assisted on over 70% of the time. (Show me how LeBron and Wade's efficiencies have gone up since joining eachother. They went way down. Why? It doesn't always work the way you foolishly think it does.)

You're also trying to make an argument that Manu's scoring efficiency is only higher than Ellis' because there are more scoring options in SA. You realize that, right? KG's scoring efficency hasn't gone up as much as what the gap between Ellis and Manu is. Therefore, your argument wouldn't apply anyway, even if there weren't already multiple live examples of your hypothesis not coming to fruition. If something doesn't always happen (and it doesn't, at least somewhere near half the time), then it's an incorrect hypothesis. Basic scientific logic. B does not always precede A, just because you've seen B before A a few times.

Quit repeating the same argument after it's already been addressed.

Also, again:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
So you tell me what's more likely. Monta Ellis switching teams and suddenly start shooting 9% above his career scoring efficiency, or Monta Ellis switching teams to a winning ballclub and having his PPG drop due to lowered FGAs on a winning ballclub that has scoring in more than 2-3 places.

I'm still waiting for you to reply to that comment. Or did you ignore it because you know it destroys your argument with ease?



Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
I'm not saying Manu would such as a first option with an ultimate green light and NBDL caliber teammates, just that his fg% would take a dive, regardless of whether or not he gets more looks up and thus increases his PPG. He'd see more doubleteams, traps, junk defenses, etc. geared particularly to stop him.

When you play with Duncan, and Parker, and even Richard Jefferson has been an all star, everything's a little easier offensively.

Manu already draws double teams. Watch any Spurs games this season. Any time he begins to move anywhere, the double comes. Or do you only view "traps" as double teams? He gets played the exact same way as Ellis does. If not even harder, because he's a more dangerous shooter and passer than Ellis (this is nearly a consensus, by everyone who isn't blinded by inflated PPG numbers for players on awful teams).

I also giggled at the name drop of Richard Jefferson. RJ's been a Spur for 1 1/4th of a year. Manu has had a TS% of .593 to over .600 every year for five seasons before RJ joined the Spurs. The only time it actually dropped below .590 was when RJ joined the team. So his efficiency actually went down, not up. It's up this year in general because the Spurs have stopped playing a mostly half court offense, which FYI, is harder to score in than a fast-paced one like the Warriors and current Spurs run. This allows Manu to have more freedom, which has directly translated into Manu's most efficient season to date. He still gets D'd up by the top perimeter defender of the opposing team, and still gets doubled teamed any time he makes a move past the 3pt line or towards a wing.

Also, you must account for the fact that Manu is a dangerous triple threat player. He's a better passer and shooter than Ellis. I feel like I have to repeat myself with you a lot since facts don't sink in with you the first time around, for whatever reason.

And finally, speaking of the great Richard Jefferson, he went from the Bucks, an average team, to the Spurs, a great team. Why did both his PPG and TS% go down? He went from 19.6 PPG to 12.3. His 3pt% went from .397 to .316. TS% down too. FG% slightly up (not surprising, as the year before was his 2nd lowest FG% year of his career, though his FG% with SA was still below his career average. FG%, a stat that never tells the full story anyway), but overall efficiency (TS%) down. I believe this shoots another hole in your hypothesis.

Players supplanted on a good team don't magically score more efficiently because they have better people drawing defenses. They score more efficiently since the teams are run better, and they aren't allowed to take foolish shots since the coach will begin to just go to other players instead. In GS, they can't stop going to Curry and Ellis because they don't have a lot of other options. Speaking of which, Ellis had Curry on his team. I'm pretty sure there aren't more than 3 perimeter defenders on the court at the same time, so I'm not seeing how both of those players can be double teamed at all times. You're acting like Ellis is getting doubled off the ball like he's Jordan or Kobe something. I've never seen that happen with him once, besides inbounds plays at the ends of close games.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Droid101
While I do think Manu should make it over Ellis, I do think it's bullshit that "Players from better teams should make it over players from worse teams."

Bull. It's an All-Star exhibition game. I want to see the most exciting and fun players. If that means getting a guy from a 2-25 team, so be it.

Save "team success" for MVP awards and, y'know, making (and winning) the playoffs.

If you had the ability to understand that stats get inflated (especially PPG) when on bad teams, perhaps you'd understand the logic behind what is being said about it. I posted multiple examples proving that logic already. It amazes me that you're still naysaying it despite it already being explained perfectly.
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:02 PM   #34
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chips93
Newsflash: neither are internet forums

Then why are you posting here? And negging everyone in the thread? You obviously care quite a great deal about what's going on here.
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Old 12-10-2010, 05:43 PM   #35
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinJackal
Before you chimed in harping on FG%, the PPG being inflated while on a bad team is what was being talked about. You started harping on FG%, since it's the only percentage that Ellis has over Manu, and since you had no argument for what I was saying about Monta Ellis' PPG being inflated due to getting 20 shots due to being on an awful team.
No, I was harping on FG% because you came in and said this Monta Ellis is a far less efficient scorer than Ginobili


Quote:


Haven't I already replied to this? I'm positive I did. Oh, here we go.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=16

Read it again. It shoots holes in your whole argument, and makes my initial argument clear. I mean, you replied to it, but apparently didn't read or respond to one bit of it. You just repeated your same argument. Why even still post if all you're going to do is say the same thing?
Nope, it's because you are talking about ppg and I'm talking about fg% because again, the initial argument started on efficiency which to me is fg% and tos, I don't follow any of those crazy Hollinger formulas.
Quote:




You're also wrong in assuming his FG% is up because he's being keyed on less. It's up because the only shots he's getting now are set up, wide open ones that he's getting assisted on over 70% of the time. (Show me how LeBron and Wade's efficiencies have gone up since joining eachother. They went way down. Why? It doesn't always work the way you foolishly think it does.)

Isn't that making myy whole point? He's always open, being setup, as you pointed out 70% of the time. Not being keyed on by the defense, pretty much synonymous with wide open.

Need more examples of players who fg% goes up when they play with other great to good players and down when they don't?
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Old 12-11-2010, 08:17 AM   #36
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
Nope, it's because you are talking about ppg and I'm talking about fg% because again, the initial argument started on efficiency which to me is fg% and tos, I don't follow any of those crazy Hollinger formulas.

If you want to go by the eff stat, they're pretty even, with Manu being slightly ahead.

Manu's eff is 21
Monta's eff is 20.3
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:05 AM   #37
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
No, I was harping on FG% because you came in and said this Monta Ellis is a far less efficient scorer than Ginobili

That's because he is. I broke it down for you multiple times. You're only response is the pathetic, childish argument that his FG% is higher? You can't be that simple-minded and ignorant of basketball to think that's actually true.


Quote:
Nope, it's because you are talking about ppg and I'm talking about fg% because again, the initial argument started on efficiency which to me is fg% and tos, I don't follow any of those crazy Hollinger formulas.

I'd been talking about PPG to begin with. You already admitted you keep rambling on about FG% because you have no legitimate argument about everything else i've been saying. You're also now trying to feign ignorance about advanced stats and pretend they don't reflect superior scoring.

If you don't want to bother, then open your eyes and your mind, get your head out of your ass, and realize that 20 points on 13 1/2 FGAs is better than 24 points on 20 shots. By a huge margin. What that means is, for every 20 FGAs, Ginobili would effectively score almost 30 PPG, to Ellis' barely over 24.

Whether you dislike advanced stats or not, you cannot deny that simple, basic logic. Logic, and mathematical fact that destroys any argument that Ellis is a better scorer than Manu. He simply isn't. His PPG are higher solely because his FGAs are much higher. Do it the other way, Ellis in 13.5 FGAs scores only about 16 1/2 points. No matter how you look at it, ellis can't score as much as Ginobili when they each have the same number of shots. This is what advanced stats reflect. Blissfully ignore them if you wish. Just stop pretending you have an argument solely because you choose to bury your head in the sand like some bitter old man. That's a pathetic way to have a conversation. "I don't care about new facts, therefore I can't be wrong about it". Really?


Quote:
Need more examples of players who fg% goes up when they play with other great to good players and down when they don't?

You again keep talking about FG%, which is the most irrelevant aspect of this argument, while ignoring everything else I'm saying.


Either A: Reply to what I have said to begin with, and all the other things I've been trying to inform you with.

or B: Stop acting like a fool and just stop posting about this, because you keep rambling about the same thing I've already debunked with twice as many examples countering your incorrect hypothesis about FG%. . .while you refuse to address all the points I made to begin with.


It's obvious you have no logical, factual, or meaningful counter reply to my comments on PPG, advanced stats, and logical and basic analysis of stats. I guess you have a third option: C: Admit you don't know wtf you're talking about and be done with it. You have this pre-conceived idea that stats must do "this and this and this", and when it doesn't, you freeze up and don't reply to when someone points that out to you. You're really failing hard here dude. Just trying to help you save face.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:11 AM   #38
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Nah bruh, you're just typing essays that are so long you keep contradicting your own damn self and I started to reply at work and was like **** it and went home.

It's not even that important, I don't have a vote for the reserves and Manu is fun enough of a player he'd still be watchable in an All Star game. It's not like putting Rip in or something

Last edited by 50inchvertical : 12-11-2010 at 09:15 AM.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:13 AM   #39
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Why is no one bringing up defense? Manu is statistically the best perimeter defender of the decade and Monta Ellis doesnt play defense. Even if Ellis actually was a better player on the offensive end (I dont buy this), Manu's defense would still make him the better overall player by far.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:13 AM   #40
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
Nah bruh, you're just typing essays and I started to reply at work and was like **** it and went home.

In other words, you have nothing legitimate to say in response. Gotcha.

Stick to things you actually know about next time, rather than look like a fool over and over again. It's best to not even open your mouth unless you know what you're saying. Especially on a forum where you have no excuse for not knowing shit you can simply google.


Quote:
Originally Posted by blondie
Why is no one bringing up defense? Manu is statistically the best perimeter defender of the decade and Monta Ellis doesnt play defense. Even if Ellis actually was a better player on the offensive end (I dont buy this), Manu's defense would still make him the better overall player by far.

I already did. That was just one of the many things 50inchveritcal chose to ignore because he had no argument against. Hence, he clings to the FG% thing as that's all he can pretend matters. Despite the fact that FG% doesn't reflect who's a more efficient scorer. It's simply one aspect of it. Of course, he harps on it because Ellis is vastly inferior in every other scoring efficiency category, so he pretends the other categories don't matter.

Last edited by SinJackal : 12-11-2010 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:19 AM   #41
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Of the decade though? The last 10 yrs?

No doubt I'd take Manu as a better defender, but at the same time everybody is a great defender with Tim Duncan behind them. Overplay them toward the help
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:28 AM   #42
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 50inchvertical
Of the decade though? The last 10 yrs?

No doubt I'd take Manu as a better defender, but at the same time everybody is a great defender with Tim Duncan behind them. Overplay them toward the help
according to defensive PER, yes.

And for the record, Tony Parker's defensive PER is nowhere close to Manu's and he has had Duncan behind him as well.
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Old 12-11-2010, 09:37 AM   #43
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Default Re: If Manu don't make the All-Star team...

Oh PER.
Quote:
In other words, you have nothing legitimate to say in response. Gotcha.

Stick to things you actually know about next time, rather than look like a fool over and over again. It's best to not even open your mouth unless you know what you're saying. Especially on a forum where you have no excuse for not knowing shit you can simply google.
Says the dude who comes in every Thunder game thread, "OMGZ they're shooting free throws than the other team! They gave him 3 free throws this time," making it obvious as shit you aren't watching the game. Eat a baby dick
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