Did you know Germany doesn't have a minimum wage?

[RidonKs]

but just to ensure we're taking a somewhat productive course, here is the wiki page.... this is pretty much the sole context through which i'm referring to the word.

While the concept of social justice can be traced through Ancient and Renaissance philosophy, such as Socrates, Thomas Aquinas, Spinoza and Thomas Paine,[citation needed] the term "social justice" only became used explicitly from the 1840s.

which is what i said. and why i loosely connected "justice", a much older idea, and "social justice", which was coined more recently but isn't so different from its roots. the soviet union is mentioned all but once in that entire wiki article. not that wiki is some advanced definitive source but it does paint a compelling picture in this instance....

once again i ask; tell me why i'm wrong.

[Nanners]

Social justice is "justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society". Classically, "justice" (especially corrective justice or distributive justice) referred to ensuring that individuals both fulfilled their societal roles, and received what was due from society. "Social justice" is generally used to refer to a set of institutions which will enable people to lead a fulfilling life and be active contributors to their community.

a lot of what is called social justice is basically just common sense - "treat your neighbors as you want them to treat you".

many of these ideas are as old as civilization itself.

[RidonKs]

lol i dunno why the fk he nitpicked that one phrase from a bunch of posts in this thread and decided to argue it was all a soviet invention/plot

number six on water flouridation

[Nanners]

well he has a point, fluoridation is pretty socialist

anyway i am against fluoridation, but thats another discussion

[NumberSix]

Social justice is "justice in terms of the distribution of wealth, opportunities, and privileges within a society". Classically, "justice" (especially corrective justice or distributive justice) referred to ensuring that individuals both fulfilled their societal roles, and received what was due from society. "Social justice" is generally used to refer to a set of institutions which will enable people to lead a fulfilling life and be active contributors to their community.


a lot of what is called social justice is basically just common sense - "treat your neighbors as you want them to treat you".

many of these ideas are as old as civilization itself.

Nice, ambiguous language, but you glossed over a major point..... Who?


"The distribution of wealth, opportunities and privileges"..... By who?

We're not talking about "treat your neighbour, blah blah" . It isn't YOU who decides what to distribute. Who is it that is deciding exactly how much wealth, opportunities and privileges we all get? Who is it that is making sure that you "fulfil your role to society"? Who decides what your role to society is? Who decides "what is due to you" for doing so?

It's easy to glance by it and not realize it, but we're talking about communism.

[Nanners]

Nice, ambiguous language, but you glossed over a major point..... Who?

I didnt gloss over anything, thats just a copy pasta of the first paragraph from the wikipedia link that donks posted.

We're not talking about "treat your neighbour, blah blah" . It isn't YOU who decides what to distribute. Who is it that is deciding exactly how much wealth opportunities and privileges we all get? Who is it that is making sure that you "fulfil your role to society"? Who decides what your role to society is? Who decides "what is due to you" for doing so?

You should direct these questions to someone who lives in norway, sweeden, finland, denmark... any of the socialist northern european countries really. I assume that the people who live in these countries vote on their laws and regulations, or something like that.

[RidonKs]

so your position numbersix, without your having offered any proof so its tricky to nail down, is that social justice and socialism are the exact same thing and they originated with the soviet union... is that an accurate paraphrase?

your reasoning for that based on your last post appears to have something to do with the right to control one's own property... which conflicts with the values of social justice/socialism (your definition) which demand redistribution from an overarching authority.

correct?

[dubeta]

The only thing minimum wage will ever do is increase costs, and therefore cause inflation, causing a further increase in minimum wage


Its a never ending cycle

[RidonKs]

The only thing minimum wage will ever do is increase costs, and therefore cause inflation, causing a further increase in minimum wage


Its a never ending cycle

this is a half-truth... tho since you included the word "only", its just factually incorrect.

[NumberSix]

so your position numbersix, without your having offered any proof so its tricky to nail down, is that social justice and socialism are the exact same thing and they originated with the soviet union... is that an accurate paraphrase?

A perfect example of your lack of understanding. You're exactly wrong on both counts.

Social justice is NOT simply a synonym for socialism. Obviously, socialism didn't originate in the USSR. Obviously.

[NumberSix]

The only thing minimum wage will ever do is increase costs, and therefore cause inflation, causing a further increase in minimum wage


Its a never ending cycle

The problem with minimum wage is that it negates "market value". The problem, all the market rigging on the other side does too. You can't really complain about market value being negated in one direction when the same is being done in the other.

Market rigging is allowing employers to pay BELOW market value, so in truth, minimum wage increases are mostly just hiking it back up closer to true market value.

The real answer is not minimum wages though. It's to end the market rigging practices that let employers pay below market value.

[RidonKs]

well why don't we end this polite and civil discourse with you offering up your definition of social justice, because that first lengthy post you made isn't exactly to the point (neither are any of my posts of course)... i'm kinda curious now.

i pretty much already subscribed to the wikipedia posting which i don't think there is much to argue with. i honestly don't think we disagree here conceptually. just historically. but w/e.

[RidonKs]

The problem with minimum wage is that it negates "market value". The problem, all the market rigging on the other side does too. You can't really complain about market value being negated in one direction when the same is being done in the other.

Market rigging is allowing employers to pay BELOW market value, so in truth, minimum wage increases are mostly just hiking it back up closer to true market value.

The real answer is not minimum wages though. It's to end the market rigging practices that let employers pay below market value.