The BigAss 2nd term thread

[Nanners]

In addition to the massive cell phone spying campaign that hit the news yesterday, it just came out that the government is also spying on americans via tech and internet companies.

The National Security Agency and the FBI are tapping directly into the central servers of nine leading U.S. Internet companies, extracting audio, video, photographs, e-mails, documents and connection logs that enable analysts to track a person’s movements and contacts over time.

The highly classified program, code-named PRISM, has not been disclosed publicly before. Its establishment in 2007 and six years of exponential growth took place beneath the surface of a roiling debate over the boundaries of surveillance and privacy. Even late last year, when critics of the foreign intelligence statute argued for changes, the only members of Congress who know about PRISM were bound by oaths of office to hold their tongues.

The technology companies, which participate knowingly in PRISM operations, include most of the dominant global players of Silicon Valley. They are listed on a roster that bears their logos in order of entry into the program: “Microsoft, Yahoo, Google, Facebook, PalTalk, AOL, Skype, YouTube, Apple.” PalTalk, although much smaller, has hosted significant traffic during the Arab Spring and in the ongoing Syrian civil war.

[KevinNYC]

How the NSA program works by the guy who invented the software.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=590cy1biewc

[RidonKs]

that TNR article was pure puff and fluff, nothing of substance. only read the abridged FP that had more.... i'd like to hear more about the real difference between what the Arab League, Brits, French, and this tougher resolution drawn up by Rice's office behind the scenes. i suppose that'd be the "protect civilians at all cost" provision? i'd like to hear rice and power's thoughts on the wording of the resolution compared with the actual campaign, which plenty of critics argue went much further. it was one thing to prevent a massacre in Benghazi, quite another to turn into a rebellion air force up until the very point of regime change. this was a civil war.

She was very effective at the UN, getting the Libya agreement through the security council. It was not just NATO acting unilaterally. She got the security council to act and it was a unanimous vote

well... sort of. the big three (uk, us, france) were gung ho but according to wiki, every other major nation (germany, india, russia, china, brazil) abstained. would they have abstained from a weaker resolution, and would they have approved of a scaled back bombing campaign that didn't last half a year or so?


as for the iranian sanctions she helped push through, forgetting the outcome of those things for a sec but they aren't pretty, and also forgetting the official justification for the sanctions which is totally ludicrous. but anyway that resolution was passed amidst a bit of controversy if you remember. you mention the 12-2 vote.... those two objections were brazil and turkey, which i didnt know but shouldnt be surprising since that was about a month after the deal between those three countries. turkey is the intermediary, ships uranium to brazil who will enrich it for iran to produce medical isotopes. this is a deal that obama was cheering for in a letter he wrote to the lula... and a deal that would eventually be scuttled, from my understanding tho im not sure on this in large part as a result of that un resolution which strengthened the sanctions.

This idea came out of the failure in Rwanda and invoked in Libya. It was not invoked in Syria, because Russia and China vetoed it.

that's the popular narrative anyway



enough about susan rice, i don't really care about her but you're right, after reading a few editorials taking stabs at her backbone and calling her a typical washington yes man, i jumped the gun on her person. i still think the keystone conflict is important, and since apparently state does have final say, it's absolutely mind boggling that her finances received so little attention. but then bringing attention to it doesn't really suit the interests of either party i suppose, for entirely different reasons.

The film actually revealed something that is not in the book, Nicole Wallace, who was Palin's handler admitted that by election day she couldn't cast a vote for John McCain for President, Palin scared her so much.

the actress who played her was great too. just watching her eyes from the moment palin blows the world away at the RNC to the couric meltdown, you can tell she knows its a lost cause from day one

[longhornfan1234]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3398666.html


NY Times(lefty magazine) has turned their back on Obama.

[KevinNYC]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3398666.html


NY Times(lefty magazine) has turned their back on Obama.

Magazine?

[longhornfan1234]

Magazine?

* newspaper

[Nanners]

Suprised that nobody on ISH is talking about PRISM. It has been officially confirmed that big brother is spying on everything.

Kind of ironic that the first black president in US history is turning out to be the president with the worst record on human rights.

Another irony is the fact that PRISM confirms that the terrorists have actually won the war on terror. Remember back in 2001 when Bush told us that the terrorists wanted to take away our freedom? Well, it appears they have succeeded.

[Nanners]

Saw this comment on reddit in response to the prism leak. Its a little long, but a really good read.

This is why innocent everyday people should care about being spied on:

I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:

1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.

Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.

With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.

2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, **** it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.

3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.

You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.

4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "**** you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a ****ing wound on my leg?"

"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.

Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.

You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.

This all happened in the country where I live.

You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.

Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?

You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?
Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.

I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.

[Nanners]

once again i am going to quote reddit

nixon resigned because he got busted wiretapping the democratic party. obama is wiretapping the entire planet.

[falc39]

Suprised that nobody on ISH is talking about PRISM. It has been officially confirmed that big brother is spying on everything.

A lot of us mentally checked out already. It's one of those things that I don't know how many keystrokes and arguments I've wasted and had to go through to try get the point across, for years now.. but it still fell on deaf ears. I remember so many petty arguments on this forum telling people that obama and bush were the same, only to have to argue against semantics and minute details about their views. Now that it's turning up and we are starting to see really how deep the rabbit hole goes, it feels like it's too late. Even I am surprised how much progress and advanced this spying shit has gotten.

I've supported Ron Paul since 2007, volunteered for his campaign, donated as much money as a college student could at the time knowing he was really our only chance at protecting our civil liberties. I look at his son, Rand, and how even with the current events, the majority of people I know (I live in a blue state) still can't even muster up just a little respect for him, even with his great record on standing up for our civil liberties... "oh, but he's part of the tea party!" "oh, I agree with him on that but could never vote for him cuz he's a republican" ****ing idiots

I mean how's the "voting for the lesser evil" working out? Turns out that evil wasn't even much lesser than the other one. And it doesn't matter still, because I know in 2016, people are gonna make the same mistake at the polls.

America dug it's grave already and now it's time to get ready to lie in it. It's the truth. We are already the laughing stock of the world now and our hypocrisy knows no bounds. Our press wasn't even the one that broke out the Verizon story... it came from the UK of all places People wont take this stuff seriously until it gets up and smacks them right in the face, and by then, it's just too late. The amount of effort it will take to turn things back at that point will be exponentially greater. Far greater than what I want to imagine...

[longhornfan1234]

George W. Obama

[ShaqAttack3234]

more like 4 murdering sociopaths.

Such a strong description would be appropriate for someone like John Wayne Gacy, or if you want to use it for a politician than someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler.

People make such asinine statements and go to such ridiculous extremes with politicians they don't like. It's really an embarrassment.

[Jailblazers7]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/08/te...orts.html?_r=0

^Here is a pretty good description of what PRISM does.

The worst part is people responding that "if you have something to hide then you shouldn't be doing it." It seems a lot of people don't grasp the implications of a program like this or consider the cost/benefit of this type of program. Imagine U.S. reaction if another country did this and used it to systematically wipe about rebellions.

[Nanners]

Such a strong description would be appropriate for someone like John Wayne Gacy, or if you want to use it for a politician than someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler.

People make such asinine statements and go to such ridiculous extremes with politicians they don't like. It's really an embarrassment.

dick cheney apologists are an embarassment. how about you go back to arguing with rocketsgreatness in the NBA forum? nobody in this thread gives a fvck about your opinion.

[RidonKs]

Such a strong description would be appropriate for someone like John Wayne Gacy, or if you want to use it for a politician than someone like Saddam Hussein or Hitler.

People make such asinine statements and go to such ridiculous extremes with politicians they don't like. It's really an embarrassment.

It's not an embarrassment whatsoever and it has nothing to do with hating politicians. The embarrassment is your failure to acknowledge a matter of fact. Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Rumsfeld are all complicit in mass murder.

The comparison to Saddam is a case in point. In 1980 Saddam launched a vicious attack on Iran and occupied southwestern Iran. Thousands of Iraqis and even more Iranians died. The war would have ended in an Iraqi retreat after a few years, as their weaponry deteriorated and their numbers were depleted, until Reagan to overwhelming opposition removed Saddam from the terrorist list and pledged him massive aid, including components for the poison gas Hussein would eventually use against the Kurds. National security directives read that the US "must do whatever is necessary and legal to prevent Iraq from losing the war". American allies went along with all this and helped out as well. Rumsfeld (speak of the devil) the defense Secretary of the time met with Saddam and assured him of American support. Thus the war continued, both Iraq and Iran were decimated, hundreds of thousands lost their lives, civilians and combatants alike.

Saddam is certainly responsible for those bodies having sparked the brewing conflict, and in the two decades afterwards he was harsh and repressive and murderous towards his own civilians. But he would NEVER have been able to kill that many people if the Western alliance hadn't rejuvenated his military. What's more, his forces were so battered after two years that it's even possible a popular uprising in his own country, out of hatred for its repression and aggression against Iran, might have even succeeded. Hell it almost did after the 92 Gulf War until NATO forces authorized Saddam to suppress it.

Needless to say however, he's a mass murderer.


Now take the Bush administration's invasion into Saddam's Iraq, a country and administration that was already probably as weak as it had ever been after Clinton and Bush I sanctions had decimated it economically.

Why did the invade? It's clear in the aftermath that it wasn't for any reason with more integrity than Saddam thinking the Iranian revolutionary regime was ripe for destruction in its infancy. Unless you believe it was a result of bad intelligence. They invaded for geostrategic reasons and the results were abhorrently bloody.

Body counts of the Iraq War put the number at anywhere between 100,000 and a full million. Couple figures right smack in the middle, it really depends who you cite. The establishment puts the number at around 150,000, with 80% of those being civilians. That should be a low estimate unless you trust the prosecutors of the war with a reliable count of their victims -- I don't. 15,000 more were included as a result of the Wikileaks War Logs which we would never have found out about were it not for a young man currently facing life in prison and a possible death sentence.

Other sources put the figure like I said at more like a million Iraqis dead, and probably just broaden the definition of 'caused' to more indirect tally.

Here's an example. Before the Gulf War (1st one), cancer rates were at about 0.04% of the population. By 1995 after the war and a few years into sanctions -- that also barred admittance of crucial radiotherapy and chemotherapy equipment -- that number had risen to about 1% of the population. Ten years after that, the number is approaching 2%.

Why? Because American weaponry used armour piercing shells tipped with depleted uranium. It's no mystery, everybody understands the roots of the health crisis. At this point, another 8 years after that 2% figure was made public, after constant warring and a horrendous lack of treatment for patients, that number could well be nearing 5%.

And that's the country as a whole. Obviously areas that were central to both Gulf invasions will carry even higher rates. How high? Between 40-48% in Basra region, estimated by doctors to rise over 50% within five years.

Or how about Fallujah? A study a few years ago documented an increase in birth defects and deformities on par with Hiroshima. You wanna read it, I'd recommend it. It's anecdotal, the cause hasn't been verified (tho american forces admit to using white phosphorus in the area) nor has its statistical significance (i dont think). but you would have to be an idiot not to consider all of these figures and not come to certain causal conclusions.





So please, tell me, how exactly is it embarrassing to claim the highest level of American governance during the enactments of these fatal policies are murderous? The sociopathy is a different matter but I'd bet my hat on it.