Darrell Griffith. The first "modern" guard?

[Kblaze8855]

Same with the Oakley video yesterday:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=340010

... im bored waiting for the finals to start so im back at this....but the idea for it came from a topic some time ago. I was told once that while there were really good athletes in the 80s it was just the big names. The Jordans, Niques, Drexlers and so on. That they were it. Guy literally told me "You keep mentioning the same guys. They were athletic. But they were it!" which kinda floored me. There were lots of guys people today just forgot about or never knew about to begin with.

DG is one.....

First:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEAJOF2CdQ0


Darrell.....why id call him arguably the first "modern" guard....not to me for the record...but far as what many modern fans see as modern traits?


This is a 6'3'' combo guard with a 40+ inch vertical, a great 3 point shot he isnt afraid to use(He shot more 3s one season than all but 5 whole teams), one of the first players with a modern crossover, hes doing Ft line dunks, 360s, gambling in passing lanes then throwing down reverse dunks to get the crowd going. He was perhaps the first guy anyone had to say "Stop shooting threes! Go to the basket! Youre the best athlete in basketball you idiot!" to.

He shot so many pullup threes, stop on a dime jumpers, and fadeaways he somehow shot UNDER 3 fts a game some years of his prime despite being one of the most gifted attackers of all time.

If Jr Smith went to college and learned to play a bit more under control he would be something like DG. Just taller. He was about Westbrooks size. 6'3'' or so but wanting to be called 6'4''.

He was everything the modern super athlete combo guard is.

Eye popping athletic ability, head scratching shot selection(or so complained some of the league....), and concerns that his team isnt quiiiiite what it could be if it had a more traditional guard.

Despite what all this may suggest my point isnt how great he was....but how great he wasnt. And why thats funny to me.

For years here ive read that if such and such went back they would...blah blah blah. Some athletic guard who would own the league.

Yet here we have a guy jumping out the gym, with modern handles, a beautiful jumper, balls to spare...

Here he is making a 30 foot game winner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJOiYyQKQnU

Hes going around the back to beat MJ for a layup at full speed, doing putback dunks over 7 footers,and whipping behind the back passes on a dime on the break in traffic.

Hes pretty much a really athletic star guard from today dropped into the league 35 years ago.

And this....id assume...god among men....

Isnt even a star.

He was ROY and all rookie first team. Then nothing.

Never an all star. Never all NBA. Little fanfare except from people who remember him from college.

This guy has the total modern package. He was NBA age in 1978. He played the same people guys like John Havlicek played. Jerry West, Rick Barry, and Tiny Archibald gave plenty of guys the business who were still hanging around guarding the likes of Darrell. He missed Jerry West by 6 years. Earl Monroe was an 18ppg player in 78. He faced the same people past his prime Dg fared no better against at his peak.

I suspect Darrell might actually be better today. He was getting his 3s off the dribble. And he was one of the only ones looking to do it. He didnt have the floor spread ball whipping around looking to find someone spot up open. You can see in the video he gets the tipoff and sprints up an f takes a pullup 3.

It wasnt really in the offense. He just did it anyway.

Im not sure what would keep him from being a higher level scorer now than he was 30 years ago. Hed be taking 6 threes a game and attacking guys who cant touch him.

I bet transported into 2008 in his rookie form hes a star by now. And hed be the kind people would probably say didnt exist in the late 70s/early 80s and would own the league.

I wonder how many guys like him are lost to time. Hes one of the most spectacular players ever and there is next to no good footage of him anywhere.

No wonder Paul Westphal cant get his due respect. People barely saved Darrell Griffith looking like Rose/Westbrook. Who saves film of good fundamentals and gritty defense?

But Paul Westphal was all NBA first team...over Magic Johnson..all star over DG...a lot of freaks. But nobody will ever look at his picture or highlights and say he could be anything today.

I gotta think something was there....we just dont have much on film to prove it.

A lot of 70s/80s greats will never get their due respect. And people will keep acting like the great players were limited to a short list of people everyone knows...but ill try to do my part.

Guys like Darrell were out there.

And people even less famous than him....who were considered better.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Good stuff. Loved the vid. Some very valid points you made there.

Darrell Griffith, I tell ya, dude could fly, many reports claim he had a 48'' vertical, that's one of the highest if not the highest in NBA history... He didn't have big hands though, if he did have (while even being a bit taller) he'd easily be much more well known nowadays and he'd be pulling some of the very best dunks in history, but like you've said, he also wasn't the player that a Jordan, a Nique or a Dr J were.. not even that close.
People can check some Jazz games during those days, what impressed me even more than his dunks or layups, were the lift he would imprint when he contested shots or during rebounds:





Yea I guess when you look at the overall athleticism, the moves he pulled, the shot-selection and the IQ.. you can say he was one of the 1st "modern guards" (I don't really like that expression but whatever). World B Free is another great example of that, also got Michael Cooper when it comes to 3&D players, even though he was actually more than that with the passing/playmaking/ballhandling and his D was simply incredible.

Off the top I wouldn't have guessed that Griffith was never an all-star... Goes to show that athleticism and flashiness isn't remotely close to being everything, and Darrell was also very skilled. Furthermore, I can see him being a star in today's league, easily.. Then you'd have some dudes claiming he'd completely destroy the league in past eras

You got lots of ignorant people thinking they know it all though. Speaking all those cliches about athleticism when they don't even know more than a dozen of players from back in the day. There are numerous examples of really athletic players from back then that would still be really athletic now (and they didn't have all the "advancements" you can think of), lots of them that weren't even viewed as much, at all, back in the day.....

Orlando Woolridge was built like stone



... an athletic freak capable of stuff like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJ-CH_dHw8Q
Plenty of skill too.. I bet plenty people don't even know who he is, and he was never viewed as all that back in the day, never an all-star as well.

This is 6'10 Larry Nance:



athletic beast, used to posterize players all the time, skilled and all-around.. Guess he must've been MVP back in the day

Speaking of Nance, look at what Michael Cooper did vs him on a fastbreak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7K-oa2bDFY&t=1m17s
Dude that could do that and completely shut down your best scorer (1-3), underrate some of those defensive players though. Check out Bobby Jones too, if you see his picture you'd probably call him just another tall white guy, you see him on the court jumping, running, and playing defense, you'd be like

Look at ****ing Darryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins, who was already playing in the 70's.. 6'11 w/o shoes, 260 lbs of muscle, big hands, long arms, athletic monster:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sYJ2ItXiRo
And that ***** had some solid post-moves while being able to hit the outside jumper.. One of the best centers in the league, if not the best??? No, not even close.

Sleepy Floyd was crossing people up all the time, you don't hear his name much nowadays, even when it comes to that.
Phil Ford was pulling some of the best 360's layups ever, in the late 70's, most don't know who he is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIlYHq4SE0M

Ralph Sampson was doing this in college: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0YUN4DBIgo
7'3 with plenty of skill, on the perimeter too.. Guess he just arrived in the league and became the best

Somebody explain to me how come 6'10, very athletic Cliff Robinson, dude who won defensive honors in the 00's, was getting murked by an old, overweight Larry Bird with little mobility left, due to career ending injuries (after surgeries)?? Or how Bird was better than Erving or Wilkins and destroyed them more than the other way around??
Or how come Pete Maravich, who leaves everybody in awe and was doing your favorite's player signature move way back in the day, was never better, or viewed as better than Jerry West? Or David Thompson for that matter, an athletic freak with lots of skill.

Glad you brought up Paul Westphal, he's extremely underrated. Plenty of people would look at him and say stuff like "this white dude would be roasted in today's league", when players like those mentioned before were never considered as good as him (I won't even bring up players like Nash or Dragic).
pulling a 360 in OT during game5 of the Finals:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-RX1B_tF5c&t=8m41s
he had terrific touch around the rim with both hands, great finisher:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=0m50s
very athletic too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=24m27s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=33m8s
played D:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsJG5ek5fkI&t=9m58s
Could shoot, score, pass... Guess he'd just be viewed as another "white stiff", nowadays.....

[BoutPractice]

Amazing vid, amazing choice music... and what an athlete. A walking highlight reel...

[Psileas]

Great post, Shaq. Especially your Westphal mention brought to my memory that HORSE competition that took place somewhere in 1977 and its Final would feature Westphal and Maravich, both deceptively athletic and masters at making trick shots, but Westphal got injured and the matchup never happened...

[Kblaze8855]

I have more to say about the post above and will do that after I get dinner....but ill ask now...

In your clip of Cooper blocking Nance...you notice in the next clip he blocks a DG dunk?

[SHAQisGOAT]

I have more to say about the post above and will do that after I get dinner....but ill ask now...

In your clip of Cooper blocking Nance...you notice in the next clip he blocks a DG dunk?

Yup, Coop had lots of sick fastbreak blocks, just Plenty of times he didn't even block it from the behind (chase-down style), he'd run fast af, found the right angle then just stepped in front of the opponent and proceded to block him straight up. I mean, it was an extremely tough task to block someone like Nance or Griffith, without being a poster, while he was coming at ya, let alone on a fastbreak coming up from behind.

[SHAQisGOAT]

Great post, Shaq. Especially your Westphal mention brought to my memory that HORSE competition that took place somewhere in 1977 and its Final would feature Westphal and Maravich, both deceptively athletic and masters at making trick shots, but Westphal got injured and the matchup never happened...

Thanks.
Yea seen some HORSE games from Pistol, one with Westphal too I believe, that matchup would've been very entertaining, no doubt. Paul is very overlooked.

[Calabis]

In before "he would be just a avg athlete in todays league"

[Take Your Lumps]

Jesus that's one hell of an arc on his jumper

[L.Kizzle]

Nice, Griffith would be an all-star today,.

But, the first modern guard to me, is DAVID THOMPSON.

[houston]

ok cool thread really earl monroe the first modern guard

[bizil]

Nice, Griffith would be an all-star today,.

But, the first modern guard to me, is DAVID THOMPSON.

I agree! In terms of the first freak athlete scoring machine two guard who truly played above the rim and great scoring skillset, Thompson was the first in my book. Before that, the great two guards were guys like West, Monroe, Pete, Sam Jones, Greer, etc. Usually great athletes who played above the rim with style and freak athletic ability were forwards like Baylor, Hawkins, and Gus Johnson. So Thompson totally revolutionized the backcourt and paved the way in ways for 6'3 to 6'4 guards like Wade, Rose, Westbrook, and Griffith. As well as bigger SG's such as MJ, Drexler, Kobe, Vince, and T-Mac.

But Griffith was underrated and was the next guy after Thompson in my book for that style. Awesome to watch and surprised he never made an All Star team. However, Griffith was likely (unless I'm mistaken) the first superstar freak athlete SG who was dunking like crazy in college! Remember that the dunk was banned when Thompson was at NC State.

[bizil]

ok cool thread really earl monroe the first modern guard

In terms of the shake and bake dribbling and dominant scoring in one, The Pearl was THE first modern guard in that sense. He was And 1 before And 1. He had the total package of scoring in spades! Epic slashing, epic midrange, and even epic in the post as well.

[deja vu]

Great post as usual! Most NBA fans don't know him but he was an athletic beast. He would be one of the most athletic players nowadays if he's placed in today's NBA.

[bizil]

And while we are at it NO GUARD combined dominant shooting-scoring, passing, and handles with flair like Pistol Pete. The guys kind of similar are Steph Curry, Nash, or Mark Price. But Pete was doing it at 6'5! Even to this day, nobody does it better than Pete in that sense! And the Iceman was the first big SG at 6'7 or 6'8 and up with epic slashing, midrange, postup game, and athletic ability in one.