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Old 07-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by lurch67
Oh. oh my. my head hurts just starting to figure out where to start here. Wow. Leviathons according to Job and Isaiha were serpent like SEA CREATURES. NOT land dwelling air breathing reptiles. Wonder what it means in hebrew? Whale. NOT T-Rex. Whales to someone who had never seen something like them befor could easily look to have wings (really big fins). They would also fit the time period. You honestly think man and Dinosaurs walked side by side? Id sure like to know how the humans could breath at that period in time. Scientist have determined that the levels of carbon in the atmosphere during the Mezasoic Era (AGE OF DINOSAURS 199Million+ or - 10 Million years ago) would have been toxic to us by studying rock formations from around the world.

As for Noahs ark. The story of the great flood is in many religions that are pre Judaiha, centered around the middle east. Now keep in mind, to the Bedouin travelers who told this story around desert camp fires for centuries, the flat world ended just east of Egypt. Their concept of the whole world was quite limited. If you started searching for signs of a great flood, grab a topical map and look for likely spots. The best one would be on the SW shores of the Dead Sea at a low Mountain Valley. Guesse what. Science again discovered there was a great flood triggered by a lahar (Giant mud slide) that caused a Sunami forcing great amounts of water into the valley below. This would have been a great tragedy to the people of the area. With little knowledge of geo-physics, the people surmised that the big invisible man that raises the sun in the East must have been angered and caused the whole world to flood. They retell the story over and over at camp fires to pass down the tale because they have no written languages yet. More and more gets added to the story until we get the version we see in the Bible. Plus a boat the size of the Ark made of wood, would have collapsed on itself under its own weight (not to mention the added strain of the animals, food, fresh water, and their waiste) with out the use of arches. Arches weren't developed until MANY CENTURIES later. And for that fact, were did the wood come from. The middle east is not known for forrestry. Did God supply him with a Home Depot?

Finally, to discuss briefly on evolution. If we came from Adam and Eve, where did Neanderthals come from? DNA test have confirmed that we as homo sapiens could not, and are not related to them. So did God make a back up plan? If He is omnipotent and unfallable, why do so? or how about other races for that fact?

It's funny that late period knuckle draggers (pre-homo-erectus circa 1.5 million years ago) decided the boogey man threw lighting and carried the sun on his back and learned to fear him, evolved to what we are today. Many knuckle draggers still fear the wrath of the boogey man and fire. I dont need to fear someone or some evil place to have morals or a conscience. Im more evolved than that.


What are you talking about? I never said it was a land dwelling creature, I said water-dwelling. And I just used the word "wings" in quote, not to say it actually had wings, but to illustrate that it looked more like wings than legs.


Regarding the wood...there are some that believe the "gopher wood" referred to cypress wood, which was prevalent in Chaldea and Armenia, both in the Middle East. Still, that's what is believed by some, not necessarily fact. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says Noah lived in the Middle East where Israel and Jordan reside. He may have resided in parts of Europe, where oak wood is used. Or in Lebanon, where cedar is an ideal wood, and pine grew there too.

As I've said, people will tend to believe one thing over another. In certain cases, it's not necessarily because what they believe is so true, but in many cases because what they don't believe seems so foolish to them that they accept or develop something else to believe in. Christianity, the Bible and things about it seems foolish to many, so I'm not surprised.
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:31 PM   #77
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Around what time was this? Didn't the Sumerians develop their cuneform around 4000-3000 B.C.E.? I have very little to no knowledge on the issues being discussed, that just happened to catch my eye.

And I would also like to know about the DNA test saying we're not related to Neanderthals. Homo sapien neanderthalis was right before Homo sapien sapien, right?

All the articles Ive read give you about the same era for cuniform (roughly 3500 B.C.) Scientist say the variance for carbon dating under water artifacts is a few Hundred years. The artifacts from the Black Sea would still be 7k-8k years ago. And of course, all this info. can contorted and read to fit anyones beliefs. The scientist that found this site are on the hunt for Noahs Arc.
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Old 07-16-2007, 04:58 PM   #78
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What are you talking about? I never said it was a land dwelling creature, I said water-dwelling. And I just used the word "wings" in quote, not to say it actually had wings, but to illustrate that it looked more like wings than legs.


Regarding the wood...there are some that believe the "gopher wood" referred to cypress wood, which was prevalent in Chaldea and Armenia, both in the Middle East. Still, that's what is believed by some, not necessarily fact. There is nothing in the Scriptures that says Noah lived in the Middle East where Israel and Jordan reside. He may have resided in parts of Europe, where oak wood is used. Or in Lebanon, where cedar is an ideal wood, and pine grew there too.

As I've said, people will tend to believe one thing over another. In certain cases, it's not necessarily because what they believe is so true, but in many cases because what they don't believe seems so foolish to them that they accept or develop something else to believe in. Christianity, the Bible and things about it seems foolish to many, so I'm not surprised.

Well Knuckles, with out saying it out right, your post implied that the Leviathons were the Thunder Lizards. And even if there were enough cypress trees to build the Uber-Titanic, please do inform me, how it could have been built. Not only would have to engineer the boat design (including learn rudimentary geometery-Arches), he would have to go find the wood, fell the timber, mill it to dimension, etc, etc, etc. I forget how many cubits it was. But it was freaking HUGE. You are talking tens of MILLIONS hours of man power. And all by himself. As for being in Europe? Wow Knuckles, now you are reaching. The Muslims, Christians, Jewish and religions previous to them, all indiginous of the Middle East , use it to convey Gods wrath. But no record of this "World Wide Flood" in the history of the Guals, Franks, Druids, Celts, Scots, Norse, etc etc. means one thing. They didnt know of it until Christianity told them in the bible.

So in conclusion Knuckles, Ill go on believing provable science. Go with your faith and believe in the boogey man. I normaly dont knock on peoples beliefs, cuz were all entitled to them. But I too will stand up for mine when preached to.
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Old 07-16-2007, 05:35 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by lurch67
Well Knuckles, with out saying it out right, your post implied that the Leviathons were the Thunder Lizards. And even if there were enough cypress trees to build the Uber-Titanic, please do inform me, how it could have been built. Not only would have to engineer the boat design (including learn rudimentary geometery-Arches), he would have to go find the wood, fell the timber, mill it to dimension, etc, etc, etc. I forget how many cubits it was. But it was freaking HUGE. You are talking tens of MILLIONS hours of man power. And all by himself. As for being in Europe? Wow Knuckles, now you are reaching. The Muslims, Christians, Jewish and religions previous to them, all indiginous of the Middle East , use it to convey Gods wrath. But no record of this "World Wide Flood" in the history of the Guals, Franks, Druids, Celts, Scots, Norse, etc etc. means one thing. They didnt know of it until Christianity told them in the bible.

So in conclusion Knuckles, Ill go on believing provable science. Go with your faith and believe in the boogey man. I normaly dont knock on peoples beliefs, cuz were all entitled to them. But I too will stand up for mine when preached to.


1) Who's Knuckles?

2)Who said Noah built the Ark by himself? Saying Noah built the Ark is like saying Agamemnon won the Trojan War. Didn't do it by himself, had others helping him and/or doing it for him. Or did you not know history has always favored giving the leaders credit for doing things their subordinates actually did?

3)If you have actual proveable evidence that Noah lived nowhere else but the Middle East, I'll take back the possibility of him living elsewhere....

4) What is a thunder lizard???? Anyway, you suggested the leviathan translated as "whale," as do several others. But whales don't have scales, and according to Job 41:15, the leviathan did. Whales don't have nostils, but according to Job 41:20, the leviathan did. Whales are harpooned easily, but according to Job 41:24-28, leviathan could not be harpooned easily. So I don't see how you got that it was a whale, chief, especially when Isaiah 27 describes it as a serpent. So what provable science are you talking about?

If you don't want to believe what the Bible says, that's cool. Certainly not alone in this forum. We'll just agree to disagree.

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Old 07-16-2007, 08:48 PM   #80
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I have some questions. Why was the God of the OT so evil? Why did he kill so many people?

What's up with passages like:

Leviticus 24:16 (King James Version)

16And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death.

Exodus 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

What makes you feel so strongly that it's the correct religion? Why do you think that faith isn't simply wishful thinking?

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Old 07-17-2007, 06:51 AM   #81
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Default Re: Jesus Is Not Real

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Originally Posted by Sean77
1) Who's Knuckles?

2)Who said Noah built the Ark by himself? Saying Noah built the Ark is like saying Agamemnon won the Trojan War. Didn't do it by himself, had others helping him and/or doing it for him. Or did you not know history has always favored giving the leaders credit for doing things their subordinates actually did?

3)If you have actual proveable evidence that Noah lived nowhere else but the Middle East, I'll take back the possibility of him living elsewhere....

4) What is a thunder lizard???? Anyway, you suggested the leviathan translated as "whale," as do several others. But whales don't have scales, and according to Job 41:15, the leviathan did. Whales don't have nostils, but according to Job 41:20, the leviathan did. Whales are harpooned easily, but according to Job 41:24-28, leviathan could not be harpooned easily. So I don't see how you got that it was a whale, chief, especially when Isaiah 27 describes it as a serpent. So what provable science are you talking about?

If you don't want to believe what the Bible says, that's cool. Certainly not alone in this forum. We'll just agree to disagree.

1. You are Knuckle(s Dragger)

2. Even if he had a work force of a thousand people working 24 hrs a day, i would still have taken over a decade. We couldnt even forsee the Sonami hitting Indonesia. I doubt Noah had 10 years of advanced warning

3. If you cant conclude that Noah was from the ME, then you are a retard. Nowhere else on Earth does anyone have stories of the great flood or Noah. Actual evidence proves the flood originated in the Black Sea. Wheres the Black Sea? DEE DEE DEE! The Middle East Carlos! Do you need to go to the sun to know its hot? Do you need to be taken in a space shuttle to see for your self the earth is really round? NO! You should be able to use reasoning and common sense to draw rational and reasonable conclusions as to how things are. Thats why I alikened you to our knuckle dragging ancestors Knuckles. Of course the bible never stated Noah was from the M.E. The perception of the entire world to the people who wrote it was limited by means of travel. To them, the M.E. was the entire world. They new nothing of Asia or Europe or even most of Africa. The story is indiginous to the region. Do you think it happened in say Canada and the got the news of the Heavenly world web on the laptops made of granite?

4. Dinosaur translates to thunder Lizard. Ill even give you that it might not have been a whale, but thats semantics. The original debate was if the bible mentions dinosaurs. You said it did- leviathons. Please tell me how thst explains the land and air dwellers. And how we lived at the same time of the plesiosaur since thats basically the one you think the leviathon is.
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Old 07-17-2007, 08:34 AM   #82
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For those who say they don't believe in God, why when calamity happens in their lives or they are about to get murdered or die the cry out "OH MY GOD" ?


I thought they didn't believe in God !
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:12 AM   #83
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For those who say they don't believe in God, why when calamity happens in their lives or they are about to get murdered or die the cry out "OH MY GOD" ?


I thought they didn't believe in God !

it's a phrase. it's so common that you don't really think about it when you say it.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:15 AM   #84
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For those who say they don't believe in God, why when calamity happens in their lives or they are about to get murdered or die the cry out "OH MY GOD" ?


I thought they didn't believe in God !

Becasue they secretly do believe in god.


Seriously, think a little bit here.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:43 AM   #85
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I think this thread was funnier at first. It started lagging in the middle, and came back a little on this last page, but not quite enough... I think the thread is through. It had a good run, but it's becoming identical to other threads now and the other threads are gonna start making fun of it. We should put it out of its misery.
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Old 07-17-2007, 10:51 AM   #86
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Will this do?
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Old 07-17-2007, 12:48 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by lurch67
1. You are Knuckle(s Dragger)

2. Even if he had a work force of a thousand people working 24 hrs a day, i would still have taken over a decade. We couldnt even forsee the Sonami hitting Indonesia. I doubt Noah had 10 years of advanced warning

3. If you cant conclude that Noah was from the ME, then you are a retard. Nowhere else on Earth does anyone have stories of the great flood or Noah. Actual evidence proves the flood originated in the Black Sea. Wheres the Black Sea? DEE DEE DEE! The Middle East Carlos! Do you need to go to the sun to know its hot? Do you need to be taken in a space shuttle to see for your self the earth is really round? NO! You should be able to use reasoning and common sense to draw rational and reasonable conclusions as to how things are. Thats why I alikened you to our knuckle dragging ancestors Knuckles. Of course the bible never stated Noah was from the M.E. The perception of the entire world to the people who wrote it was limited by means of travel. To them, the M.E. was the entire world. They new nothing of Asia or Europe or even most of Africa. The story is indiginous to the region. Do you think it happened in say Canada and the got the news of the Heavenly world web on the laptops made of granite?

4. Dinosaur translates to thunder Lizard. Ill even give you that it might not have been a whale, but thats semantics. The original debate was if the bible mentions dinosaurs. You said it did- leviathons. Please tell me how thst explains the land and air dwellers. And how we lived at the same time of the plesiosaur since thats basically the one you think the leviathon is.


That continual Knuckles thing is actually kind of cute, how you're trying to get under my skin. Nice try, though...

You're right...Noah had 120 years advanced warning. But I don't expect you to accept that, either, since you think I'm a retard just for believing what I do.

Regarding the semantics issue, you didn't present that as just semantics, you said that was the actual translation. Either it's translated as whale or it's not, so which one is it?

What about land and air dwellers are you asking exactly?

And for the record, I didn't say that's what I believed the leviathan was. I said that what others believes it was, it may or may not be. But I did say the descriptions match, and this should at least raise questions concerning what is traditionally taught about evolution. But like I've been saying, the real issue here isn't so much what's the truth as it is what's accepted.

Like the Bible says, whose report will you believe, and who do you and I say Jesus is, that's what really important. The truth is the truth, and will remain the truth regardless what we have to say about it, so the real defining factor is whether you accept it and submit to it or deny it and come up with something else to believe in. People do it everyday, but soon we'll all know what our choices have earned us.

It's obvious you and I won't agree, and I have no wish to continue in arguments that lead nowhere. I've said my piece, you've said yours; anything else would be more of the same. So good day to you, I pray the Lord open your eyes to His truth. Peace.
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Old 07-17-2007, 02:21 PM   #88
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A newfound interest and awakening among this generation have caused more people to believe in God and miracles, asserts Bishop Thomas "T.D." Jakes, Sr., founder and senior pastor of the Pentecostal church, The Potter's House, in Dallas, TX.

"They are seeking social solutions within the structure of the Christian religion. I would suggest that a major reason for this religious revolution pivots on the realization that the wars of our society tend to be internal in nature, emotional in scope and yet devastatingly lethal to our development as people," contends Jakes, author of the book Woman, Thou Art Loosed!

He continues, "In short, we are experiencing more conflict within than our predecessors. We are engaged in a silent war that rages within the walls of our own thoughts and stresses. Consequently, each person seeks solidarity through a mixture, through the therapy of a prayerful pursuit of a more intimate relationship with Jesus Christ."

Terri McFaddin, a minister, evangelist and author of the book, God Made Me Beauty-full, feels that more people believe in God because we live in an era where there is a breakdown of the most fundamental support systems.

"The family is splintered and many church and community institutions are no longer relevant when it comes to dealing with contemporary challenges," maintains McFaddin, who is based in L.A. "This has caused people to look for help and to explore the unseen realm by gripping hope in a way that is beyond reason and logic. People are looking for something to explore. There are only two realms left to explore--outer space and the spiritual realm."

More people believe in miracles, concedes McFaddin, because, "We are living in some desperate times."

"This is the most unstable time in our culture. We are living in desperate times where people are going to believe in things they can't see because they can't trust the things they can see," concludes McFaddin. "Miracles happen where natural resources end. One will walk into the realm of miracles when all natural resources have been exhausted."
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Old 07-17-2007, 03:26 PM   #89
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A question for religious persons: Were you raised to be religious? Do you share the same religion as your family? Or, did you objectively view all religions in the world, and choose which best suited you? I'm guessing the former.

Most people believe in their religion because they were raised to believe it, not because they've actually thought for themselves and decided upon that religion. I don't see why someone should go to hell(not that one even exists) because they were raised in a Buddhist family.
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Old 07-17-2007, 04:13 PM   #90
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A question for religious persons: Were you raised to be religious? Do you share the same religion as your family? Or, did you objectively view all religions in the world, and choose which best suited you? I'm guessing the former.

Most people believe in their religion because they were raised to believe it, not because they've actually thought for themselves and decided upon that religion. I don't see why someone should go to hell(not that one even exists) because they were raised in a Buddhist family.


I grew up with a Christian grandmother in my family, but my mother did not become a Christian believer until about eight years ago. I accepted Christ at 12 - which was my decision, it was never forced onto me - but didn't really get serious about it until 19(I'm 30 now) I went to church with grandma early on but stopped when I hit high school - just wasn't feeling it.

True, some people claim to be Christians because their parents or grandparents were, but that's not an automatic guarantee that you will be become Christian. There are many people who were raised Christian but later on reject what they learned. Even now, my grandmother and I disagree on certain things concerning disputable matters, though for the most part she has strived to teach essential Christian values.

Some people have simply accepted everything the preacher/spiritual leader says without really searching the Scriptures and going to God for themselves, but one thing I learned from my mother is to not be afraid to think differently from others, even as a Christian. For example, my grandmother is into a lot of these televangelist you hear on TV, but I take what they say with a fine-toothed comb. Too much of the things they preach simply don't line up with what the Bible says, so my approach has now been "When they're right, they're right; when they're wrong, they're wrong."


So now I believe what I believe because I searched the Bible for myself and use that as my reference for Christian teaching first, and with pastors and teachers I compare what they're saying with what the Bible says. If more Christians did that, they would see more clearly how some of the things being taught are not quite lining up.


Concerning people going to hell, I can understand why you feel that way. But people don't go to hell because of how they were raised. They go to hell when they choose to sin against God and never repent. If people went to hell for how they were raised, many of the men and women in the Bible would be doomed from birth. We must understand that as God is loving and caring, He is also righteous, holy, and just. He loves all of His creation very much, but He equally hates sin and all forms of it. Sin is not merely what you do, it is ultimately how you think and choose to live. A Christian rapper once put it like this:

Sin is any thought that's not morally pure
Sin is loving anything else more than the Lord
Sin is breaking His laws, forsaking His commandments
Sin is hatred of God, it's blatantly satanic

The problem is that our sin gets in the way of any progress or chance of a relationship with God. And wherever sin is, God cannot be, because again He is holy. This does not change the fact that He loves us, but it does mean that we keep ourselves from ever knowing Him in a personal way like we know our mother and father.

Some might try to twist this and say that this all means God must have made us sinners, but it is not God that makes us sin: it is the lust we keep in our hearts. It was mankind's own choice to disobey God that has gotten us in this situation. It was a choice that was made and is continually made by you and me. And we try and justify it by saying "there is no right and wrong," or "there is no God," or "no one can tell me I'm wrong."

What's funny about that is we'll say there is no right or wrong, but we'll agree certain things are right or wrong. Child molesters? We'll agree that's wrong, especially if you have kids. Rapists? Very wrong, especially if you're a woman. Brutally killing animals? Many will agree that is very wrong, especially animals. Killing trees? Wrong., especially plant/tree lovers Killing babies/children? Definitely wrong, especially those with kids. Killing unborn babies by way of abortion? Well, that's the woman's choice, nobody can tell her it's wrong because it's her body. How about 10 abortions in 5 years? I heard a radio station today read a letter where the writer's friend has two kids and doesn't want a third, but doesn't want to stop having sex so she's had 10 abortions in the last 5 years. That's ten babies killed off, but because it puts the woman in a pickle, it's seen by many as okay to abort them, 'cuz hey, they're not human anyway. But the fetus develop all the organ a full grown human has as early as 8 weeks in the womb, the heart being the first. That may be her body, but it's not her life being snuffed out.

We live in a backwards world when we save trees and animals but kill unborn babies. But it's not seen as evil because we have attempted to make our own definition of what good and evil, attempting to leave God out of the equation. And it's all a result of not wanting the true and living God in our hearts, which the basis of all sin.

But you'll actually be surprised to find that most Christians in the world once believed in something different. There are many Christians in China, Iraq, Sudan, India, Burma, Haiti, Nigeria, Congo, etc. that once believed in something different. See in America we've been used to seeing other Americans raised as Christians living as Christians, and make the assumption that's how it is everywhere else. But there are so many that have come to know the God of the Bible. Did someone tell them about it? Most likely yes, but that still doesn't always result in that person accepted Christ.

Last edited by Sean77 : 07-17-2007 at 04:18 PM.
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