NBA witholding footage

[L.Kizzle]

There are a ton of fights I would love to see. One such was posted here either earlier this year or last year of a Pistons brawl from the late 70s that ended up in the stands.

Another was 5'9 Calvin Murphy knocking out 6'9 Sidney Wicks sometime in the mid-70s. It was reported that Calvin got into 18 fights ... and never lost one.

[Pointguard]

No.

The NBA just never saved games. No fire is needed. Plain and simple, the NBA did NOT have a process to archive film of games in the 1950's, 60's, nor most of the 70's. And some games didn't even have cameras in the arena.

The Knicks saved a few silent short game clips in the late 60's and early 70's for coaching/film review reasons of that time that were lucky enough to survive and most of these clips can be found on MSG tv from time to time and they will even go through the trouble of adding their own "sound" (commentary) to make it broadcast worthy. That's probably the only reason why a clip of this fight exists.

I enjoy your work but you aren't an official spokesperson for NBA archives.

They may not have had an archival system themselves and can word that to you and leave it at that. The broadcasting stations had to have an archival record. Anything that was went on national TV had two storage records not on NBA storage records, sometimes three were kept. Films of that age need specialist and can be maintained under another institutional name like National Basketball Storage or NBC sports archival.

I retrieved a lot myself in my first job. I saw Phil Chenier punch Walt Frazier in the face and Frazier absolutely destroy him. I saw that on a major networks reel to reel. I saw Chamberlain go off on somebody I didn't know on the Knicks. And this was when I worked for NY Public Library system on 53rd street - the Dornell branch which is no longer there. But the Lincoln center branch took most of the archival records. Those films did not make the trip so my guess is that it is under Bryant Park.

Later on when I was producing, I would request certain clips and got some things and watched the wording on how NBA kept a lid on distribution. But people into getting films as an institution know what a block is. Let somebody now go on Youtube with a full 1960's game. And then let you ask for that game.

[CavaliersFTW]

I enjoy your work but you aren't an official spokesperson for NBA archives.

They may not have had an archival system themselves and can word that to you and leave it at that. The broadcasting stations had to have an archival record. Anything that was went on national TV had two storage records not on NBA storage records, sometimes three were kept. Films of that age need specialist and can be maintained under another institutional name like National Basketball Storage or NBC sports archival.

I retrieved a lot myself in my first job. I saw Phil Chenier punch Walt Frazier in the face and Frazier absolutely destroy him. I saw that on a major networks reel to reel. I saw Chamberlain go off on somebody I didn't know on the Knicks. And this was when I worked for NY Public Library system on 53rd street - the Dornell branch which is no longer there. But the Lincoln center branch took most of the archival records. Those films did not make the trip so my guess is that it is under Bryant Park.

Later on when I was producing, I would request certain clips and got some things and watched the wording on how NBA kept a lid on distribution. But people into getting films as an institution know what a block is. Let somebody now go on Youtube with a full 1960's game. And then let you ask for that game.

Well, time will tell, I'm supposed to talk with someone in November from the NBA after the season starts about doing what I do, hopefully "with" or for them in the future. I suspect the majority of pre-1980's sources of basketball game film as it relates to the NBA has already been made public in some piece or form or another. This just off of how much I've seen from specifically the 1960's decade, and a brief discussion with two individuals from the NBA digital broadcast/production dept last year that contacted me.

I hope however, that what you say is true, that there are much more extensive untapped sources of footage. And I also hope the NBA has directly collected and is aware of it all already, and that they just haven't had the time or reason to dig into it yet. I suspect that isn't the case though. Because if what you've seen is true, you do realize the NBA could be totally oblivious to it, right? The NBA originally contacted me over a year ago because a historian there told his boss to contact me about my channel and the vibe I got was they wanted to know if I knew of anything they weren't aware of (which maybe I'm aware of some things, like NCAA game clips of guys like Gus Johnson or Luke Jackson). I remember specifically them saying they don't have enough people looking into it. They made a Finals montage for last seasons finals that included a clip of Jerry West's 60+ foot shot, and the guy I talked too on the phone had NO IDEA where that specific footage/play-by-play came from and when he asked the guys who put the short production together they said "we got it from you" (the NBA). So I don't know how organized or aware of their own sources they are.

[Taller than CP3]

I want backstage footage of Carmelo looking for KG in the Boston Celtics locker room.

[RoseCity07]

I have yet to find the footage of a Golden State vs Portland game when Rasheed Wallace hit a game winner on the road. I remember Blazers got attacked by the fans after that game. Chris Mills was thuggin hard and trying to fight our players. No one on Portland backed down and shit went down in the parking lot. Fans were throwing stuff at and spitting on our players.

[OldSchoolBBall]

The NBA has a TON of footage that they don't release, and which you will only see bits of on NBA approved videos and NBA TV specials. I've seen courtside angles of Jordan games against the Knicks and Cavs in crystal clarity.

There was talk several years ago about the NBA releasing and uploading its entire footage archive online in conjunction with Synergy Sports. All footage was actually supposed to be indexed play by play and searchable on various parameters (like, if you wanted to see footage of all games tied with 3:00 left in a given season, you could search for that). That never came to fruition, though, likely because of the NBA's greed.

[Psileas]

A somewhat relevant question: How about radio broadcasts of 50's-70's NBA? If even Wilt's ultra obscure 100 pointer has at least a quarter of available broadcast, can't this be the case for other games, as well?
(Btw, last time I had heard this broadcast, several months ago, I had tried to use this broadcast to find about Wilt's unofficial stats in that quarter. If multiple broadcasts exist, someone could do the same).

[magictricked]

The NBA has a TON of footage that they don't release, and which you will only see bits of on NBA approved videos and NBA TV specials. I've seen courtside angles of Jordan games against the Knicks and Cavs in crystal clarity.

There was talk several years ago about the NBA releasing and uploading its entire footage archive online in conjunction with Synergy Sports. All footage was actually supposed to be indexed play by play and searchable on various parameters (like, if you wanted to see footage of all games tied with 3:00 left in a given season, you could search for that). That never came to fruition, though, likely because of the NBA's greed.

I read a couple years ago there's discussions still going on. Problem is over the rights to the footage, the royalties and everything that goes with it.

The original plan had been for it to be free but demands from the various broadcasters but the project on hold.

It would have been a massive project from the start, a lot of that old game footage is on film

[CavaliersFTW]

A somewhat relevant question: How about radio broadcasts of 50's-70's NBA? If even Wilt's ultra obscure 100 pointer has at least a quarter of available broadcast, can't this be the case for other games, as well?
(Btw, last time I had heard this broadcast, several months ago, I had tried to use this broadcast to find about Wilt's unofficial stats in that quarter. If multiple broadcasts exist, someone could do the same).

He had at least one steal (from inbound pass) that quarter.

But that game was 'found' in some guys residence in the 1980's. The NBA nor the radio station that broadcast the game was the source. So that game isn't a sign of the NBA having a database of radio broadcasts, more just blind luck that somebody had the mind and equipment to start recording that game and saved it/stored it somewhere. Kind of like how the recent 1973 Knicks finals game surfaced, somebody unaffiliated with the NBA and ABC had recorded it with their own equipment in their own home.

[L.Kizzle]

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2621,2448063

http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...pg=3869,429686

[russwest0]

Footage has now been leaked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsOvUc3FGMk

[LAZERUSS]

I have always found it fascinating that there is video footage of the Lakers-Bucks game in 1972, in which the Bucks broke LA's 33 game winning streak...and yet, not one of their six WCF's games has ever surfaced...all of which were nationally televised live. Furthermore, I believe the majority of their '72-73 regular season H2H's were also televised.

And I am also curious as to what happened to local station footage, such as the Warrior-Laker games that were televised on KTVU in that same 71-72 season? I remember watching two of the Laker blowout wins that year (129-99 and 162-99.)

Bill Simmons also claims to have watched a Chamberlain game in which he scored 73 points. Of course, he is not a reliable resource, so you can only take that with a grain of salt.

On another forum a few years back, a reasonably well known sportswriter claimed to have watched entire footage of a Russell-Wilt battle in the mid-60's that he had watched at a public library. Which would seem to substantiate Pointguard's take in this thread.

It does seem to be a little suspicious that the only semi-full game footage that exists of Wilt, does not include even one of his 273 40 point games (albeit, there is solid footage of his 42 point All Star game in '62.)

Finally, I recall reading here a couple of years ago, that the NBA (or some organization) was sitting on a ton of unseen NBA footage, and that they were in the process of slowly releasing it to the public. Hopefully that is indeed the case.

[Psileas]

I have always found it fascinating that there is video footage of the Lakers-Bucks game in 1972, in which the Bucks broke LA's 33 game winning streak...and yet, not one of their six WCF's games has ever surfaced...all of which were nationally televised live. Furthermore, I believe the majority of their '72-73 regular season H2H's were also televised.

And I am also curious as to what happened to local station footage, such as the Warrior-Laker games that were televised on KTVU in that same 71-72 season? I remember watching two of the Laker blowout wins that year (129-99 and 162-99.)

Bill Simmons also claims to have watched a Chamberlain game in which he scored 73 points. Of course, he is not a reliable resource, so you can only take that with a grain of salt.

On another forum a few years back, a reasonably well known sportswriter claimed to have watched entire footage of a Russell-Wilt battle in the mid-60's that he had watched at a public library. Which would seem to substantiate Pointguard's take in this thread.

It does seem to be a little suspicious that the only semi-full game footage that exists of Wilt, does not include even one of his 273 40 point games (albeit, there is solid footage of his 42 point All Star game in '62.)

Finally, I recall reading here a couple of years ago, that the NBA (or some organization) was sitting on a ton of unseen NBA footage, and that they were in the process of slowly releasing it to the public. Hopefully that is indeed the case.

Also: Nbastats mentions a couple of Wilt's high shot blocking games as being nationally televised. Including, iirc, a 44/28/5 game from 1962, when he also blocks an estimated 28 shots...Plus, that famous 1969 game vs Phoenix, when he went 15/15/6/23, with 15 blocks in the first half alone.

[L.Kizzle]

Some of those broadcast were recorded over to make room for other games. It was common procedure back then.

[STATUTORY]

I enjoy your work but you aren't an official spokesperson for NBA archives.

They may not have had an archival system themselves and can word that to you and leave it at that. The broadcasting stations had to have an archival record. Anything that was went on national TV had two storage records not on NBA storage records, sometimes three were kept. Films of that age need specialist and can be maintained under another institutional name like National Basketball Storage or NBC sports archival.

I retrieved a lot myself in my first job. I saw Phil Chenier punch Walt Frazier in the face and Frazier absolutely destroy him. I saw that on a major networks reel to reel. I saw Chamberlain go off on somebody I didn't know on the Knicks. And this was when I worked for NY Public Library system on 53rd street - the Dornell branch which is no longer there. But the Lincoln center branch took most of the archival records. Those films did not make the trip so my guess is that it is under Bryant Park.

Later on when I was producing, I would request certain clips and got some things and watched the wording on how NBA kept a lid on distribution. But people into getting films as an institution know what a block is. Let somebody now go on Youtube with a full 1960's game. And then let you ask for that game.

why did NYC library archive NBA games?