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Old 07-05-2011, 07:25 PM   #61
2LeTTeRS
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
The blog puts the blame on non-player related expenses. Guess what if you didn't have those expenses, then the league wouldn't have been this popular and wouldn't have its international income.

Also, if you look at the 10 year history, player salaries have ballooned starting when the old CBA was signed. That means the old CBA was a mistake. Don't blame the owners for this, because the players signed off on this CBA as well.

Since the old CBA got signed, total player expenses to revenue has increased to around 59-60%. I wouldn't say the owners won in that CBA.

Also, you left out one important thing. Four teams took home the $150M of the $183M total net income. That's just wrong.

If the Owners want to include figures that include none-basketball related income that the Players aren't entitled to a share of they should have come out and said that. This is the reason they look like such liars now. This was a horrible PR move on their part IMO.

And when the Owners start giving Players a share of the profits when a team is sold, then it will be fair to hold them accountable for losses associated with that sale.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:26 PM   #62
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Hunter questioned some accounting procedures on what constitutes operating losses, and pointed out that, in many markets, team owners also earn revenue from also owning local TV networks that carry the teams' games.
Unless somebody points out what these accounting policies were in question. I'll assume they were the same from deadspin since the ESPN article made reference to them.

Also owning local TV networks isn't an excuse for owners to take the hit. Those TV networks are a different company and should be treated separately. Or maybe you could tell Paul Allen and Mark Cuban that its perfectly ok for them to funnel all their earnings from their other business to the players.

At a microsoft meeting...

Hey we made a lot of money this year, let's use that money to develop a new product to go head to head against the ipod.

I'm sorry we can't, since I need that money to pay off salaries of my NBA team.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:29 PM   #63
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
It's been my contention all along that revenue sharing is needed. I am pretty sure I have stated that in this thread already.

Also the owners definitely won the last CBA negotiation. The players caved in at the last minute and agreed to capped salaries.

Your talking about 1998. The last CBA was signed in 2005. And I disagree tha the Players lost in 1998, the middle and lower classes of NBA players won, the only guys who lost were the superstars who could have got contracts over max.

Here are the results of the 2005 CBA negotiation >>> http://esquiresports.blogspot.com/20...ing-labor.html

Quote:
This a list of demands the Owners had back in 2005:

- An increase of the age limit of 20 or 21 (was 18 prior to the new CBA),
- Reducing the maximum length of contracts would be 3 or 4 years if re-signing (was previously 6 or 7 years),
- Reduction in the maximum raises in contracts to 5% (down from 10 to 12.5%), and
- Teams would be subjected to a super luxury tax if they exceeded the cap too much.

Here's what the Owners and Players actually agreed to:

- Age limit of 19,
- Maximum contract length went down 5 or 6 years,
- Raises went from 10% to 8% if go to new team; and 12.5% to 10.5% if re-sign,
- No super luxury tax imposed,
- The players slice of the revenue pie was guaranteed at 57%, and
- The formula used to calculate salary went up from 48% to 51% of revenues, raising the amount of money each team could spend on players pretty substantially.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:36 PM   #64
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
If the Owners want to include figures that include none-basketball related income that the Players aren't entitled to a share of they should have come out and said that. This is the reason they look like such liars now. This was a horrible PR move on their part IMO.
I don't really know how the negotiations went down. I thought it was like "here's our financial statements, as you can see we are making a loss, so we need you to give back"

If the players can't read these financial statements then it's not anyone's fault
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:38 PM   #65
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
Unless somebody points out what these accounting policies were in question. I'll assume they were the same from deadspin since the ESPN article made reference to them.

Its the exact same point kentatm posted from that ESPN article

In either case their argument is the same: some issues simply aren't the players' problem. Unless the players can share in the profit when a team is sold, they don't want to be burdened with the costs associated with buying the team in the first place. And if they don't have a say in the team's management decisions, they don't want to pay the cost when those decisions go awry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
Also owning local TV networks isn't an excuse for owners to take the hit. Those TV networks are a different company and should be treated separately. Or maybe you could tell Paul Allen and Mark Cuban that its perfectly ok for them to funnel all their earnings from their other business to the players.

At a microsoft meeting...

Hey we made a lot of money this year, let's use that money to develop a new product to go head to head against the ipod.

I'm sorry we can't, since I need that money to pay off salaries of my NBA team.

Do you really not understand what Hunter is saying? He's claiming numbers are being manipulated by charging artificially high/low rates to NBA franchise from other businesses also owned by the Owner.

This has nothing to do with your analogy. The Players are speaking about Owners who own the team and the arena and charge artificially high rents to the team in order to give a bigger expense and have larger losses. That is simply not fair.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:44 PM   #66
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gasolina
I don't really know how the negotiations went down. I thought it was like "here's our financial statements, as you can see we are making a loss, so we need you to give back"

If the players can't read these financial statements then it's not anyone's fault

Who said the Players can't read financial statements? They have disputed the numbers the Owners have given from the beginning but have not chosen to publicly release their exact figures.

Unfortunately for them news outlets like ESPN have been reporting the numbers the Owners allege to be loss without even mentioning the fact that the Players dispute them. Its gotten to the point that now most fans can sprout out that fact that 22 out of 30 teams are losing money, and that the league is losing $300+ mil annually.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy those numbers. They simply do not make sense. If teams were bleeding numbers at that rate it would not be so many people out rushing to buy teams, and teams value would not be rising at such a high rate.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:57 PM   #67
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Who said the Players can't read financial statements? They have disputed the numbers the Owners have given from the beginning but have not chosen to publicly release their exact figures.

Unfortunately for them news outlets like ESPN have been reporting the numbers the Owners allege to be loss without even mentioning the fact that the Players dispute them. Its gotten to the point that now most fans can sprout out that fact that 22 out of 30 teams are losing money, and that the league is losing $300+ mil annually.

I'm sorry, I just don't buy those numbers. They simply do not make sense. If teams were bleeding numbers at that rate it would not be so many people out rushing to buy teams, and teams value would not be rising at such a high rate.

I think most people realize that any numbers the owners give the players will not be accurate. Its just part of negotiating. If the owners claim they are losing 300 million. Its most likely 150 or less. Its just common sense.

Just like the owners asking for basically everything and everything is just a tactic. As the true deadline approaches we will see what the owners are really after.

Personally, I don't see how a hard cap helps anything. And I really think the players would stand their ground on this....and I think too many big market owners would be opposed to this and thus would impact revenue sharing discussions between the owners.

To me, it will ultimately be up to the players to decide whether or not there is basketball next year unless the owners find a way to make adjustments on their own (which is possible....but not likely).....

The players can never get that 2.1 billion in salary back. And unless the owners are really just completely lying about financial state of the league, the owners would be much more likely to condone missing a season than the players.

That is the rub. The owners caused the problems. They are clearly lying about the state of the league to an extent. And they are asking for unreasonable concessions by the players.

Unfortunately, the owners have more power, and seem willing to lose a season.
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Old 07-05-2011, 07:59 PM   #68
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Do you really not understand what Hunter is saying? He's claiming numbers are being manipulated by charging artificially high/low rates to NBA franchise from other businesses also owned by the Owner.

This has nothing to do with your analogy. The Players are speaking about Owners who own the team and the arena and charge artificially high rents to the team in order to give a bigger expense and have larger losses. That is simply not fair.


Can you expound on this a little bit more ??
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:41 PM   #69
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Do you really not understand what Hunter is saying? He's claiming numbers are being manipulated by charging artificially high/low rates to NBA franchise from other businesses also owned by the Owner.

This has nothing to do with your analogy. The Players are speaking about Owners who own the team and the arena and charge artificially high rents to the team in order to give a bigger expense and have larger losses. That is simply not fair.
Hehe can't believe that flew over my head. So the owners may be involved in some illegal transfer pricing scheme.

Still, too many people involved. If the related party tv networks gave the lowest tv deal to the teams then other networks might cry foul.
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Old 07-05-2011, 09:49 PM   #70
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2LeTTeRS
Your talking about 1998. The last CBA was signed in 2005. And I disagree tha the Players lost in 1998, the middle and lower classes of NBA players won, the only guys who lost were the superstars who could have got contracts over max.

Here are the results of the 2005 CBA negotiation >>> http://esquiresports.blogspot.com/20...ing-labor.html

Eh, I think the owners came away with more. You're right though, in that mid level players are better off, but the top tier superstar definitely was hurt. Lebron should be able to make $50 million+.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/03/sp...abor-deal.html


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“In ’99, the N.B.A. achieved total victory,” Arn Tellem, one of the league’s most powerful agents, said in a phone interview. “There’s not much more they could have achieved.”
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:17 PM   #71
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeronMillsap
I don't have the ratings from this year's Stanley Cup Finals series but last year's series was actually pretty high. It almost matched the Celtics-Lakers series when they went head-to-head on a Sunday night (NBA/ABC vs NHL/NBC).

There was also an article from last year about NBA ticket sales, it wasn't even half of what the NHL sales are doing. NHL TV ratings are not as good as the NBA's TV ratings but they're doing great in terms of ticket sales.

the lakers celtics had a 13 rating( game 7 had a 18 rating), stanley cup finals game 7 had a 5 rating ( which is pretty good for hockey, highest in like a decade).
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Old 07-05-2011, 10:21 PM   #72
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Sarcastic
Where did you get those figures from? The ones I have heard of are not nearly as high.

Yankees make (including YES) over $500M-$600M a year. they count money they pay to Yes for rights fees as an expense which reduces what they have, plus now they are counting the stadium debt also. They make easily more than $200-$300 million above payroll. the numbers came out when the Steinbrenner sons (who don't give a shit about the team for the reason im about to give) got the team valued in case of a future sale last year or the year before.

i LOVED george for all his faults and i was a met fan. he got it. i dont think his sons get it. just my opinion.
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Old 07-06-2011, 08:30 AM   #73
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

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Originally Posted by bdreason
First of all, the amount the owners are profiting is debatable. Of course they are going to claim huge losses, but as we've seen, those numbers are easily skewed.


Secondly, when did owning a pro sports franchise become a sound investment? Pro sports teams have always been risky purchases, and that's why it is BILLIONAIRES and MULTIMILLIONAIRES that own them. Now, all of a sudden, they want to GUARANTEE profits?

If that's the case, I'd like to get in on this 'guaranteed' investment, as I'm sure everyone in the World would.

owning an nba team should guarantee you a profit. nba has no competition and its the best basketball sports and if its not giving you a profit then theres a problem with it

Last edited by knicksman : 07-06-2011 at 08:54 AM.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:05 AM   #74
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

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Originally Posted by knicksman
owning an nba team should guarantee you a profit. nba has no competition and its the best basketball sports and if its not giving you a profit then theres a problem with it

That's the stupidest thing I ever heard. You still have to run your business soundly and not spend more than you earn.

On top of that there is competition amongst themselves. Just because a city has a team doesn't mean they get all the fans. If there is some kid in Milwaukee who hates the Bucks but loves Kobe Bryant, then they've lost out on an opportunity. That kid is going to buy Kobe jerseys and not Andrew Bogut ones.
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Old 07-06-2011, 09:20 AM   #75
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Default Re: Ric Bucher: Owners of both NBA/NHL teams, say a whole season lockout is worth it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by knicksman
owning an nba team should guarantee you a profit. nba has no competition and its the best basketball sports and if its not giving you a profit then theres a problem with it

That's not how the real world works, you don't get guaranteed profit just cuz you invested millions into something. You will find out when you grow up and enter the real world.
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