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Old 12-04-2010, 06:36 PM   #121
jlauber
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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And I did think Russell was overrated, but now I appreciate him more, though I still don't know where to rank him due to his offense. But he's in my top 10 and ahead of Wilt who I think is the most overrated top 10 player, though still top 10.

And you should be banned for staying stupid shit like Shaq would be Darryl Dawkins in Wilt's era.


Talk about being banned for stupid ***.

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Old 12-04-2010, 07:00 PM   #122
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
And I did think Russell was overrated, but now I appreciate him more, though I still don't know where to rank him due to his offense. But he's in my top 10 and ahead of Wilt who I think is the most overrated top 10 player, though still top 10.

And you should be banned for staying stupid shit like Shaq would be Darryl Dawkins in Wilt's era.

May I ask your list of the most overrated top 10 players besides Russell and Wilt please?:


I said Shaq would've been Darryl Dawkins based on the fact that Shaq crowned the king of the offensive fouls(588 offensive fouls) player in the last 20 years, and he did get away with many of his elbow attacks.

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Old 12-04-2010, 07:04 PM   #123
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by ShaqAttack3234
Why would anyone need to do a finger roll in the post? It's a dumb move when you could go up with a jump shoot or a short turnaround with don't expose the ball and seem to be easier shots.
The fingerroll is very practical if you do baby hooks, fadeaways or shots in which a players shoulder is between the ball and defensive player. If a player overplays the hook, the fingerroll extends the range of release to about five feet horizontally. The fingeroll is always at least two feet closer to the rim than your jumper would be like most up and unders are closer to the rim. But it only makes sense if you got the touch: George Gervin, George McGiness were doing it and Earl Monroe whom might have been the only one with little hands to pull it off.
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This is a pathetic excuse. Shaq wasn't getting in anyone's way except opponents in 2000. That team is significantly worse if you replace Shaq with anyone else in the league at the time.
Where do you see an excuse??? I'm not making excuses for Shaq... Shaq got traded because he was in the way. You are pretending you don't know this. BTW, I think Duncan wins it and if you put Shaq in Duncan's place they don't win in SA. Chemistry is a very fragile thing.

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Considering Wilt only won 2 rings, and was underwhelming in the playoffs, then yes, he should have overpowered people more.
What you fail to understand is that they wouldn't allow him to do it anyway. They didn't allow Barkley to do it only like five years before Shaq. They didn't allow Darell Dawkins, Lonnie Shelton or Artis Gilmore to do it - all of whom could have had a lot more food on the table if they were allowed to do it. Shelton tried it for three years. It was Shaq getting favorable calls. A Shaq special. When Wilt did such things the rule committee came back the next year with an antidote.
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With 40 more possessions per game, while often playing every minute in huge blowouts(I'm talking as much as 50 point blowouts), vs much weaker defenses while looking for his own numbers.

Weren't that many blowouts. Padding might affect 4 or 5 points max a game on a team needing every win. The gist is what it is. If Wilt had great conditioning and can stay in a game that would break Shaq down its not Wilt's fault. News flash buddy: Records are what they are. You can make excuses or exclude or pretend - it is what it is. Shaq could not play a game that fast and never had the endurance. Therefore, on the account of his own limitations... he is excluded from the record books... Nobody is going to tell John Wall to slow down.

How would ShaQ and Kareem keep up with young Wilt's speed and activity level??? Wilt could play their game but they couldn't play Wilt's game. Wilt was faster, more active, had greater endurance, was more creative, same if not greater athletism, took on all responsibilities of the center. Shaq was clearly a number two to his contemporary Jordan. And then Shaq never separated himself from the pack.

Shaq, rarely lead in area's where he had a great advantages - rebounding and scoring? Guys six inches smaller and 100 lbs lighter always ahead of him. Yet his whole realm of reality was closer to the basket than any other contemporary - probably in the history of the game! Heck, KG was playing the point one year in the playoffs and out-rebounded him, and was right there with him in scoring - while Shaq was in his prime - THAT should not be!

Wilt played a faster game and took on all the responsibilities of center. The other guys didn't. The other guys didn't embrace everything and just let parts of the game go to the waste side. They were down to play certain roles that they liked and at their pace. Wilt worked more of it at a higher/faster pace. If his numbers look twice as good as theirs it because he took the game more serious and with more gusto. If WIlt had twenty more possessions that meant he played 30 more possessions with all of his energy than those two, who kind of dogged it.

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Old 12-04-2010, 09:31 PM   #124
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by Pointguard
The fingerroll is very practical if you do baby hooks, fadeaways or shots in which a players shoulder is between the ball and defensive player. If a player overplays the hook, the fingerroll extends the range of release to about five feet horizontally. The fingeroll is always at least two feet closer to the rim than your jumper would be like most up and unders are closer to the rim. But it only makes sense if you got the touch: George Gervin, George McGiness were doing it and Earl Monroe whom might have been the only one with little hands to pull it off.
Where do you see an excuse??? I'm not making excuses for Shaq... Shaq got traded because he was in the way. You are pretending you don't know this. BTW, I think Duncan wins it and if you put Shaq in Duncan's place they don't win in SA. Chemistry is a very fragile thing.

What you fail to understand is that they wouldn't allow him to do it anyway. They didn't allow Barkley to do it only like five years before Shaq. They didn't allow Darell Dawkins, Lonnie Shelton or Artis Gilmore to do it - all of whom could have had a lot more food on the table if they were allowed to do it. Shelton tried it for three years. It was Shaq getting favorable calls. A Shaq special. When Wilt did such things the rule committee came back the next year with an antidote.
Weren't that many blowouts. Padding might affect 4 or 5 points max a game on a team needing every win. The gist is what it is. If Wilt had great conditioning and can stay in a game that would break Shaq down its not Wilt's fault. News flash buddy: Records are what they are. You can make excuses or exclude or pretend - it is what it is. Shaq could not play a game that fast and never had the endurance. Therefore, on the account of his own limitations... he is excluded from the record books... Nobody is going to tell John Wall to slow down.

How would ShaQ and Kareem keep up with young Wilt's speed and activity level??? Wilt could play their game but they couldn't play Wilt's game. Wilt was faster, more active, had greater endurance, was more creative, same if not greater athletism, took on all responsibilities of the center. Shaq was clearly a number two to his contemporary Jordan. And then Shaq never separated himself from the pack.

Shaq, rarely lead in area's where he had a great advantages - rebounding and scoring? Guys six inches smaller and 100 lbs lighter always ahead of him. Yet his whole realm of reality was closer to the basket than any other contemporary - probably in the history of the game! Heck, KG was playing the point one year in the playoffs and out-rebounded him, and was right there with him in scoring - while Shaq was in his prime - THAT should not be!

Wilt played a faster game and took on all the responsibilities of center. The other guys didn't. The other guys didn't embrace everything and just let parts of the game go to the waste side. They were down to play certain roles that they liked and at their pace. Wilt worked more of it at a higher/faster pace. If his numbers look twice as good as theirs it because he took the game more serious and with more gusto. If WIlt had twenty more possessions that meant he played 30 more possessions with all of his energy than those two, who kind of dogged it.

Another great post.

I have said it many times now, but for those that diminish Chamberlain's numbers...why only WILT??? Were all the rest of the players in the Wilt-era mediocre??? West, Baylor, Thurmond, Havlicek, Barry, Hawkins, Maravich, Gilmore, Lanier, Russell, Sam Jones, Lucas, Oscar, McAdoo, Frazier, Reed, Bellamy, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, Dr. J, and even Kareem??? ALL of whom played DURING the Chamberlain era, and NONE of whom APPROACHED many of his 130 records.

And, many of them played well into the late 70's, and Kareem played well into the late 80's. In fact, Kareem was badly outplaying the likes of Hakeem, Sampson, and Ewing while approaching 40 years of age. And yet, he was outplayed, in his prime, by the likes of Thurmond and Wilt, both of whom were well past their primes.

Why did ONLY Chamberlain score 40+ ppg, TWICE in his career? Why was it ONLY Wilt who averaged 40 ppg over the course of SEVEN consecutive seasons? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain who led the NBA in rebounding ELEVEN times? Why was Wilt the ONLY center to lead the NBA in assists? Why was it ONLY Wilt with the 100 point game? Or SIX of the TOTAL of ten 70+ point games? Or 32 of the TOTAL of 62 60+ point games (including three from the '66-67 thru the '68-69 seasons, when he was taking an average of 15 FGAs per game?) Or 118 50+ point games (and MJ a distant second with 39)? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with a 55 rebound game (against Russell no less)? Or 15 of the 28 40+ rebound games in NBA history? Or a playoff record of 41 rebounds (against Russell no less)? Why ONLY Wilt with a 27.2 rpg game season (and another at 27.0)? Why ONLY Chamberlain with a career 22.9 rpg mark? Why ONLY Chamberlain with a season mark of a .727 FG% (and the second best mark of .683...both achieved in league's that shot between .441 to .456)? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with 35 straight made FGAs? Ot the three highest "perfect" games in NBA history at 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18? Or a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting, and near the end of his career when he had long since been a scoring power? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with 55 of the TOTAL of 61 40-30 games in NBA history? Or 109 of the 128 30-30 games? Or an estimated 25 blocks in a game? Or a recorded game in 1969 with 23 blocks? Or estimated 10+ bpg seasons? Or a career 45.2 mpg? Or the seven highest mpg seasons in NBA history? Or an incredible 47.2 mpg average in his 160 post-season games? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with 126 straight games of 25+ points? Or 65 straight games of 30+ point games? Or 14 straight games of 40+ point games (achieved TWICE, and he averaged 53 and 54 ppg in those two runs)? Or seven straight games of 50+ point games? Or averaging 70+ points per game over the course of five straight games (351 points in five straight games)? Why ONLY Chamberlain with the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists)? Or the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 shooting...all just four months removed from major knee surgery)?

Why it ONLY Chamberlain that currently holds 130+ NBA records?

Yep...it must have been those "crappy" players that he faced in his career...many of whom dominated the next generation of stars.
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Old 12-04-2010, 11:49 PM   #125
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by jlauber
Another great post.

I have said it many times now, but for those that diminish Chamberlain's numbers...why only WILT??? Were all the rest of the players in the Wilt-era mediocre??? West, Baylor, Thurmond, Havlicek, Barry, Hawkins, Maravich, Gilmore, Lanier, Russell, Sam Jones, Lucas, Oscar, McAdoo, Frazier, Reed, Bellamy, Cowens, Unseld, Hayes, Dr. J, and even Kareem??? ALL of whom played DURING the Chamberlain era, and NONE of whom APPROACHED many of his 130 records.

And, many of them played well into the late 70's, and Kareem played well into the late 80's. In fact, Kareem was badly outplaying the likes of Hakeem, Sampson, and Ewing while approaching 40 years of age. And yet, he was outplayed, in his prime, by the likes of Thurmond and Wilt, both of whom were well past their primes.

Why did ONLY Chamberlain score 40+ ppg, TWICE in his career? Why was it ONLY Wilt who averaged 40 ppg over the course of SEVEN consecutive seasons? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain who led the NBA in rebounding ELEVEN times? Why was Wilt the ONLY center to lead the NBA in assists? Why was it ONLY Wilt with the 100 point game? Or SIX of the TOTAL of ten 70+ point games? Or 32 of the TOTAL of 62 60+ point games (including three from the '66-67 thru the '68-69 seasons, when he was taking an average of 15 FGAs per game?) Or 118 50+ point games (and MJ a distant second with 39)? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with a 55 rebound game (against Russell no less)? Or 15 of the 28 40+ rebound games in NBA history? Or a playoff record of 41 rebounds (against Russell no less)? Why ONLY Wilt with a 27.2 rpg game season (and another at 27.0)? Why ONLY Chamberlain with a career 22.9 rpg mark? Why ONLY Chamberlain with a season mark of a .727 FG% (and the second best mark of .683...both achieved in league's that shot between .441 to .456)? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with 35 straight made FGAs? Ot the three highest "perfect" games in NBA history at 15-15, 16-16, and 18-18? Or a 66 point game on 29-35 shooting, and near the end of his career when he had long since been a scoring power? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with 55 of the TOTAL of 61 40-30 games in NBA history? Or 109 of the 128 30-30 games? Or an estimated 25 blocks in a game? Or a recorded game in 1969 with 23 blocks? Or estimated 10+ bpg seasons? Or a career 45.2 mpg? Or the seven highest mpg seasons in NBA history? Or an incredible 47.2 mpg average in his 160 post-season games? Why was it ONLY Chamberlain with 126 straight games of 25+ points? Or 65 straight games of 30+ point games? Or 14 straight games of 40+ point games (achieved TWICE, and he averaged 53 and 54 ppg in those two runs)? Or seven straight games of 50+ point games? Or averaging 70+ points per game over the course of five straight games (351 points in five straight games)? Why ONLY Chamberlain with the only 20-20-20 game in NBA history (22 points, 25 rebounds, and 21 assists)? Or the only 20-20 .600 Finals in NBA history (23.2 ppg, 24.1 rpg, and .625 shooting...all just four months removed from major knee surgery)?

Why it ONLY Chamberlain that currently holds 130+ NBA records?

Yep...it must have been those "crappy" players that he faced in his career...many of whom dominated the next generation of stars.
Yeah J, Maybe it wasn't about talent. Wilt who could have easily barrelled his way to 50ppg did it the hard way with dribble and skill. But to read stuff here some times they act like you didn't have to even practice shots then. Or that the ball was the size of a spalding and therefore went into the basket easy. That walking wasn't called and big men opponents were hoisting Wilt to the rim for easy access. Maybe the court was half the size and possessions where, therefore, quadrupled and created a scenario where a skillless Wilt could thrive in. The near distance of the baskets also allowed for Wilt to get the rebound, assist and shot in one semi-long continuous motion so triple doubles were done in relative ease! Ha J, you would swear it wasn't about pure basketball.
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Old 12-05-2010, 01:52 AM   #126
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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at you thinking a big man's passing ability can be measured in numbers.

No they weren't for big men. I've seen footage of Wilt just making easy passes out to wide open mid-range shooters, with of course no defense against the entry pass and no defense vs the pass back.

Did you read this post? How do you think KAJ or Shaq's averages would look playing the facilitator role as Wilt did in '67?


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...&postcount=102


Quote:
Quote:
He even averaged 5.2 apg in a year in which he led the NBA in scoring at 33.5 ppg.
Centers assists were a lot higher back then, look around at some of the other centers, even great passing big men in the 90's and 00's couldn't match some lesser passer's assist numbers.
In '66 he had a higher percentage of his team's total assists (.217) than Shaq or Kareem ever had. Closest was Kareem in '76 (.213), which happens to be his top assists per game season with 5.4. In '67 it was .294 for Wilt. This can tell us not only who the top playmaker was in the pivot, but also how they were used in the offense as well as defensive attention received + floor spacing. With a 3 pt. line in 2000 + another top playmaker in Kobe one might wonder how many "hockey assists" Shaq had. As noted earlier, the Sixers were much more active off the ball when Wilt had the ball.


This is truly a masterful job by Wilt below faking Russell out of position so subtly.

(1:08 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDHDg5pPrOc



Two fake passes at 4:30 mark followed by a power move to the basket, drawing 4 defenders and finding an open Billy C. We can also see the defensive players with their hands up denying the active cutters.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5
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Old 12-05-2010, 02:31 AM   #127
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by jlauber
Shaq joined a team of Dennis Scott, Nick Anderson, and Scott Skiles...all WAY better than what Wilt had on his poor teams

Wilt had two hall-of-famers in their prime who won a title as the first and third best player just three years prior, the 1958 rookie of the year and a PG who was considered one of the best college players in the country and would go on to lead the NBA in assists multiple times. You are going to say that three guys who never even made an all-star team are better than that? STOP this please...you know it's not true and so does everyone else here who cares.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:32 AM   #128
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by G.O.A.T
Wilt had two hall-of-famers in their prime who won a title as the first and third best player just three years prior, the 1958 rookie of the year and a PG who was considered one of the best college players in the country and would go on to lead the NBA in assists multiple times. You are going to say that three guys who never even made an all-star team are better than that? STOP this please...you know it's not true and so does everyone else here who cares.

ShaqAttack was referring to the 62-63 Warriors...which did NOT have ONE HOFer (Gola, who had NO BUSINESS being in the HOF in the first place, was shipped away after 20 games, and Arizin had retired after the prior season.) And, while Rodgers led the league in assists, he was among the worst shooters in NBA HISTORY. Had he just passed the ball, instead of shooting at all, maybe the Warriors would not have lost 35 games by single digits. AND, while Wilt set a then-record .528 FG% mark...the remainder of his teammates colectively shot .412, which was WAY worse than the worst team in the league. Wilt's 62-63 roster was probably the WORST in NBA history. SIXTEEN different players, with SEVERAL who only played 1-2 seasons. How bad was that roster? When Hannum took over that PUTRID roster the very season, he was shocked when a team of rookies and players who would never make an NBA roster, BEAT them (sans Wilt, of course.)

And, no, Shaq, nor Russell, nor anyone else would have been able to eke 15 wins out of that group of mis-fits. Chamberlain single-handedly carried that team to 31 wins, and while Win Shares can be deceptive, it CLEARLY was not in that season. Chamberlain was credited with 20 wins (by far the most in the league), or 67% of his team's wins. And, amazingly, they had a -2.1 differential. Wilt came close to single-handedly winning many more games, as well. And, once again, he LED the NBA in 15 of the 22 statistical categories. NO OTHER player in NBA HISTORY even sniffed that feat.

And Shaq's roster in 92-93 looked like the '92 Dream Team compared to Chamberlain's '63 roster of clowns.

BTW, I hope you are still not claiming that Wilt's 61-62 roster was anywhere NEAR as talented as Russell's 61-62 Celtics...which edged Wilt's Warriors in a game seven by TWO points? A 6-3 edge in HOFers and once again, not only was Gola a horrible HOFer (I could probably name 50 players who are not in the HOF that are more deserving)...he was AWFUL in that post-season (as well as the 60-61 playoffs.) Player-for-player, the 61-62 Celtics were either more talented, or far more talented...with the exception being Wilt.

And, once again, the team that Chamberlain joined in his rookie season was a LAST-PLACE team. Arizin was their only true great player, but he was already declining by the time Wilt arrived, and within another two years, he retired. Gola was a CAREER 11.3 ppg, 7.8 rpg, .431 shooter, who shot .206 and .271 in his last two post-seasons with Wilt. Sorry to say, but if he is in the HOF, then 90% of those that ever played should be as well.

Last edited by jlauber : 12-05-2010 at 03:58 AM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 01:05 PM   #129
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

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Originally Posted by PHILA
Did you read this post? How do you think KAJ or Shaq's averages would look playing the facilitator role as Wilt did in '67?


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/sho...&postcount=102


In '66 he had a higher percentage of his team's total assists (.217) than Shaq or Kareem ever had. Closest was Kareem in '76 (.213), which happens to be his top assists per game season with 5.4. In '67 it was .294 for Wilt. This can tell us not only who the top playmaker was in the pivot, but also how they were used in the offense as well as defensive attention received + floor spacing. With a 3 pt. line in 2000 + another top playmaker in Kobe one might wonder how many "hockey assists" Shaq had. As noted earlier, the Sixers were much more active off the ball when Wilt had the ball.


This is truly a masterful job by Wilt below faking Russell out of position so subtly.

(1:08 mark)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDHDg5pPrOc



Two fake passes at 4:30 mark followed by a power move to the basket, drawing 4 defenders and finding an open Billy C. We can also see the defensive players with their hands up denying the active cutters.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x48zv5


Some more excellent examples captured in photography.








Quote:
Everyone here knows about Wilt's offense, but how about his defense? He faced Kareem in 28 H2H games, and held him to .464 shooting...or nearly 100 points less than his career average of .559. In the 71-72 WCF's, Wilt held Kareem to .457 shooting, but even more importantly, he held him to .414 shooting over the course of that last four pivotal games. And, in Wilt's final season, in 72-72, he faced Kareem in six regular season games, and outshot him .637 to .450.

While KAJ did have big games against him when his mobility was all but gone, there is little doubt a younger, active Chamberlain with the Sixers would have given him even more difficulty in the paint.


Last edited by PHILA : 02-20-2011 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 02-20-2011, 03:16 PM   #130
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Default Re: comparison - Wilt VS SHAQ

http://assets.espn.go.com/nba/column...ce/836066.html


So who'd win this encounter, the one Orlando senior VP Pat Williams calls "the ultimate fantasy matchup?" While we're at it, who would win encounters between Shaq and the other all-time greats? First of all, there are some who don't think Shaq belongs on the same court with the legendary centers of the game, even after sweeping both MVP Awards and winning his first championship last season.

"I like Shaq, but he's not in a league with guys like Wilt and (Bill) Russell," said Tom Heinsohn, the old Celtics forward and ex-head coach. "Shaq is this game's ultimate guy. But he's not a dominating guy at both ends of the floor. He doesn't sweep all the boards. Heck, those guys used to break up an entire defense by themselves. Look at the record book. Wilt averaged 50 points a game. Shaq, he's not playing against anybody his own size. So he's just knocking people over. Not only aren't there any centers anymore, there aren't that many power forwards, either."

Fair enough. It's a perimeter player's league now.

"At one time, there were 10 great centers in the league, seven feet or better," said Miami's Pat Riley, who played with Chamberlain and later coached another Hall of Famer, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. "Shaq is the only guy right now who is absolutely dominant, based on sheer force and talent."

"Wilt would have to shoot his fadeaway and he wouldn't get a lot of dunks on Shaq," said Williams, the ex-Sixer GM. "But Wilt could defend Shaq. That would be the 300-pound Wilt, rather than the skinny Wilt at 21. Wilt would block a lot of his shots. The two giants would go toe-to-toe. To me, they'd play each other to a standstill and others would have to win the game."

Williams seemed equally intrigued by a Russell-O'Neal matchup. On paper, Russell would seemed to be overwhelmed by Shaq's size. Shaq would enjoy more than a 100-pound advantage on Russell, the 11-time champion with the great Celtics teams of the '60's. But don't discount William Felton Russell's brilliance as tactician.

"Russell couldn't have muscled him or matched up size-wise," Williams said. "But he would get into his head. In this era of trash-talking, he would probably work on him more than he would have back when he was playing. Shaq would be afraid to let the ball go. He wouldn't know where Russell was coming from. He'd deflect his shot. Russell would have had to have been at the top of his mental game. But he would have relished the challenge."

"Shaq is not used to getting his shot off against people who have equal size and power," said the former Piston and Buck, who is now a special assistant to NBA commissioner David Stern. "Don't forget, Wilt played against guys who were much better defensively than Shaq, and who had a lot of versatility at the offensive end. Heck, Wilt used to put big numbers up against Russell, and he was the greatest defensive center who ever lived."

The greatest offensive center was one of Lanier's contemporaries, Abdul-Jabbar. The league's all-time leading scorer vs. O'Neal would have been a great matchup, just to see O'Neal try to defend the skyhook.

Some say that Abdul-Jabbar would have had to move his lethal move outside a few more feet, because Shaq would refuse to allow Abdul-Jabbar to station himself so close to the basket. But there's little question that Abdul-Jabbar would have been able to score.

"With all his talent and height, he'd give anybody who ever played a hard time," Lanier said. "It's like when you talk about Magic Johnson. When a guy is that talented and that big, he can play in any era. Kareem wasn't overly powerful defensively. But with his height and athleticism and length, he would affect Shaq's shots."

Last edited by PHILA : 02-20-2011 at 03:19 PM.
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